Re: [TIED] Raggle-taggle Gypsies

----- Original Message -----

From: John Croft

To: cybalist@egroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 1:16 PM

Subject: Re: [TIED] Worm in the Roma language

Tzigani (Polish Cyganie, German Zigeuner, etc.) is comes via French and Hungarian from Byzantine Greek athinganoi 'untouchables', applied originally to a Manichean sect in Asia Minor, and by extension to heretics and other suspect people. The first European reference to the Romani dates from 1378, when the Venetian governor of Nauplion (Peloponnese) issued an official confirmation of privileges granted to the local community of Atsigani.

 

Gypsy is short for 'Gyptians (Egyptians), as John says. same for Spanish gitanos, etc.

 

I remember reading somewhere that Romani (Rroma, Doma, Loma) derives ultimately from Sanskrit d.ama (with a Dravidian etymology), used of low-caste musicians. But I haven't checked it yet.

 

Piotr

 

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Marcus wrote

> but with all due respect, I would like to kindly offer you my
modest
opinion
> on one other word you mentioned:
>
> the Roma (Gipsy) language
>
> Here in Romania from where I am writing,
>
> the local Gypsies (Tzigani) are called by other Romanians and call
> themselves
> Tzigani or Rromi, with a quite recent preference (since 10  years 
as far as
> I know ) from most of themselves (not all) to be called Rrom
(singular) or
> Rromi  (plur).
> Their language is called Rromani  (adj.) or Tziganeasca (adj.).

We have Romany friends here in Australia, and they call themselves
Rhom or Romany folk.  Gypsy I know comes from the fact that when the
y
arrived at the gates of Paris during the era of the Black Death (was
it 1349?), the Parisians were fearful of infection and shut the gates
against them.  Their leader told a tale that they were the
descendents
of the Egyptians who had refused sanctuary to Jesus and Mary during
the persecution of Herod, and had been condemned to wander the world
forever.  Anyone refusing them hostitality, it was claimed would
share
their curse.  Paris opened its gates and called them little Egyptians
(Gypsy).  I have seen the name Tzingane used before, but don't know
its origin.  I suspect that Rhom or Romany is linked to Rumelia, but
don't know...  I know they are supposed to derive from an
Indian caste of jugglers and performers who entered Iran
and were driven west by the Mongol Ilkhanid invasions.  Suggestions
anyone on the origins of their names?

Regards

John

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