Re: Norman Vikings

Rex wrote:

> Not picking on John, nor Mark who made the "Norman French"
> reference earlier on this list, but I wish to make a peripheral point

of

> historical order: "Norman French" is an oxymoron..albeit a very

common one

> in scholarly circles, particularly, for some inexplicable reason:

English

> ones. There was little French associated with the men of William in

1066,

> and very few Franks.
>
> The French state boarders did not coalesce until the 15th

century, so it

> is not even "politically correct". Norman Franks? No. The Norman

state

> was intrusive into the Frankish state..the collapsing remnants of
> Charlemaign's post Roman creation. The Frankish state ceded by

treaty the

> Norman lands to intrusive Nordics (who chased off the autochthons,

keeping

> only females of choice.) (911: Treaty of St. Clair-sur-Epte; between

Charles

> III and Rollo). This granted Rollo, a Viking, the lands around the

mouth of

> the Seine and the present city of Rouen. Norman means Northman>

Norsemen.

> In 1066, most of William's men still spoke Danish, with some Angle,

Saxon,

> Norwegian, Icelandic, Norn and other polyglot groups thrown in

(probably to

> include some Gaelic speakers from the Scots coast, including my

Danish/Celt

> ancestors in Easter Ross?). The only Franks being small groups Rollo's
> successors had gained hegemony over as they re-spread west into what

became

> "Normandy". None of them had any problem finding interpreters across

the

> channel either. That's why we all don't key in French on the
> internet :-). Alliances from outside the Norman sphere are of course

known

> in support of William, but their post battle influence was limited.

The

> strongest of these came from the North: remember that Harold was

forced to

> stop Sigurdson at York on 25 Sept, while William was in Pevensey Bay

on the

> 28th. Therefore, if modified, lest we are discussing post 15th century
> "French from Normandy, in which case Norman would be wrong..It is

either

> just "Norman"....or maybe.."Norman Vikings" (Hmm..consider Hastings

as the

> last and largest Viking raid:-)

Interesting point but one I disagree with strongly. As one who can
trace his ancestry back to the Norman French, Rollo married a French
women, as did his sons and grandsons, and their families. Like many
cases, children from these unions grew up speaking the language of
their mothers' more fluently than the tongue of their fathers. Danish
had disappeared as their language by the time of Emma of Normandy,
(William's aunt) who had difficulty speaking the language before going
to England to marry into the Anglo Saxon Royal Line (She didn't keep
the difficulty forever as she eventually married Canute). Nevertheless
her son - Edward the Confessor, preferred French (the language of his
childhood) than English, or Danish.

At the battle of Hastings, the Normans fought, not to a Viking bard
recounting the tales of Sigurd, but rather to Taillefer singing the
French "Chanson de Rolland".

All following monarchs spoke French rather than English as their
language of preference. Richard the Lion Hearted especially, for all
the pro-English anti-Norman propaganda pace Hollywood Robin Hood Movies
had an especially bad stammer in English and hated the language as he
had no fluency at all! It was only Edward I Longshanks who was the
first monarch who spoke English without a trace of an accent.

It probably explains why all the words of feasting (beef, mutton and
pork) and courtesy, are derived from French rather than a Viking tongue.

Hope this helps

John