From: Mark E. Shoulson
Message: 3150
Date: 2004-07-14
>Mark E. Shoulson wrote:Don't make me laugh. An _entire_ Mishna, all six orders, all pointed?
>
>
>>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Texts other than Tanakh are not pointed (unless they're children's
>>>editions). Have you looked in the Mishnah, the Qabbalistic texts, etc.?
>>>Rabbinic correspondence from the past millennium?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>But that simply is not TRUE. That's why I wrote to correct you. It is
>>NOT the case that texts other than the Tanakh are not pointed. Have YOU
>>looked at recent editions of the Mishnah? I can scan you a
>>
>>
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>for babies
>
>
>>fully-pointed one. Have YOU looked at ANY prayer-book printed in theNo, and in fact it's hard to find an *un*pointed prayer book. Even big
>>last ~500 years? Even the non-Biblical prayers are fully pointed. Have
>>
>>
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>for babies
>
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>And the Masoretes would be scandalized.So what? I'm just pointing out that the vowels ARE used for
>
>
>>YOU so much as looked at the Hebrew translation of The Lord of theApparently not, since just about every Modern Hebrew poem I've seen
>>Rings? Every poem (*poem*, mind you) in that book is completely
>>pointed, every dot and dash. Just like I said. Have YOU read ANY
>>Modern Hebrew poetry? Go get a book of (the recently deceased) Naomi
>>Shemer's poetry, or Yehuda Amichai, or go father back and look at Hayim
>>Nachman Bialik's. They're all pointed very very carefully.
>>
>>
>
>Will the Penguin (or maybe Pelican) bilingual anthology of Modern Hebrew
>Poetry do? Unpointed.
>
>
>>>>And it isn't just "occasionally"; Hebrew poetry is and has beenTiny selection? Find a really decent mahzor and go through page after
>>>>regularly *completely* pointed, every dagesh (light and heavy), every
>>>>shewa, every patah and qamats. Hebrew prosodic analysis (among other
>>>>things) requires it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>If piyyutim were pointed, they would be a lot less difficult to
>>>interpret. Also, I suspect, much less susceptible of multiple
>>>interpretation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>But they are pointed. Go get hold of any decent prayer-book: they're
>>pointed up down and backwards (and a good thing, too, because they'd be
>>
>>
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>Some tiny selection of piyyutim are printed in prayer books, and they're
>pointed for babies.
>
>
>>almost unreadable otherwise: the words are pretty obscure). It's quiteI have no evidence to the contrary, but I personally find it hard to
>>possible
>>
>>
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>It's quite certain
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>>that the pointing was added later and not by the originalI don't think so. I think your command of obscure Hebrew grammar is not
>>authors, but that isn't the point.
>>
>>
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>Of course it is. The editors imposed a particular interpretation of the
>many possible ones intended by the poets.
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>