--- In qalam@yahoogroups.com, "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
wrote:

> John Cowan wrote:
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels scripsit:
> >
> > > "For /S/ : /Z/, minimal pairs are even rarer, and only the

following are

> > > known in my speech: dilution : delusion, glacier : glazier,

and Aleutian

> > > : allusion.
> >
> > All three analyzable as /zj/.
>
> Absolutely not. This is H. A. Gleason, this is ultra-orthodox
> descriptive linguistics. Such "analysis" wouldn't even be invented

until

I am not sure if this is apropos but Gleason analysed Punjabi as a
tone language. He felt that he had surprised everyone with that. I
don't think he thought of himself as "ultra-orthodox". He loved all
American dialects and accents and was a great and humourous
storyteller.

> half a decade later.
>
> > > ... In English /Z/ is a rare phoneme, and particularly so in
> > > monosyllables.
> >
> > I don't know what monosyllables have to do with it.
>
> You would do well to read Gleason on phonemic analysis and minimal
> pairs!
>
> > > The author knows only three such words, loge, beige, and
> > > rouge. The odds are against finding contrasts with only three

words with

> > > which to work."
> >
> > I will bet there are dialects in which all three of these

show /dZ/.

>
> We aren't describing a "dialect." We're describing General

American, in

> particular as instantiated by Henry Allan Gleason, Jr.
>
> > > Now, what was the original problem?
> >
> > 1) Whether in some dialects all instances of /Z/ are analyzable

as /zj/.

> >
> > 2) Whether there is any dialect in which /Z/ is *not* analyzable

as /zj/

> > apart from limited lexical exceptions without minimal pairs.
>
> As you can see from the above remarks, such questions are entirely
> dependent on the linguistic theory you espouse. They are not

questions

> of fact.
> > --
> > John Cowan jcowan@... http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> > Does anybody want any flotsam? / I've gotsam.
> > Does anybody want any jetsam? / I can getsam.
> > --Ogden Nash, No Doctors Today, Thank You
> --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...