William B.,

Sorry for the delay in answering.

I want to thank you very much for that introduction to Pitman's and Greg's
shorthands. Now I understand why you mentioned them with respect the "features"
subject.
Nevertheless, I see that even being actualy very featural still they are not fully
featural.

[you wrote]

> in gregg, for example, a short diagonal line is voiceless T, while a long
> diagonal line is voiced D; and similarly for the voiceless-voiced pair K vs
> G. but a short horizontal line is N, while a long one is M. See WWS p. 812.

[mariano]
Well, my speculative interpretation is that <m> and <n> are letters in wich what
is symbolic for nasal voice are just the horizontal lines, the vertical strokes
being added because the need to use all the space or because the need to make
them more visible and, or, what is more iconically important because the need
to show the lengh of the line.
The two phonems differ in being /m/ [+grave] and /n/ [-grave],
I would suggest a much more speculative idea that this [+grave] is represented in that
the <m> is like a lengthened <n> to the right (if the <m> being not
considered symetric and that a stroke to the right would be an "extension"
whilst a stroke to left would be a "retraction" that would give a different
figure that would correspond to the Spanish <ñ> (an <n> with a tilde) or another
with a stroke towards the upper part, not like in the IPA), and that a stroke
that goes from the center to the right symbolices [+grave];
but I'm afraid there is no evidence to state that, because <j> and <y> are letters
for [-grave] phonems and its main stroke is below the midle line (this being
another way to symbolize [+grave]) and its lower part comes from its
left what would symbolize [+grave]; so useless to mention it, except
because I am thinking in making an alphabet with such symbolism.

[you wrote]

> as regards pitman, there is a chart on WWS p. 812, tho it's hard to read.
> pitman distinguishes the voiceless/voiced pairs, T/D K/G etc., by
> *darkness* or *heaviness* of line; i always thought that would be hard to
> implement (especially when your pencil breaks, or gets dull). pitman also
> uses this "feature" to distinguish S/Z, TH/DH, and SH/ZH, which gregg fails
> to distinguish. also pitman avoids gregg's false-featural analysis in which
> N/M are treated as a voiceless/voiced pair.
>
> however, pitman falls short of a fully featural analysis; e.g., it has
> nothing to show that M is produced in the same labial position as P and B.

[mariano]
Well, but /m/, /p/ and /b/ all share being [+grave]; and, also, being very speculative
all share having a stroke towards the right side from a central main stroke.

Thank you.

Yours cordially,
mariano

>
> i've wondered: did those old textbooks on gregg and pitman actually have
> some way of printing the letters and words from movable type? or did they
> just use lithography, like urdu printers (at least until recently)?
>
> cheers; bill
> ----------------
>
> >* william bright
> >|
> >| in all the discussion of "featural" systems, i find it strange that
> >| there is so little mention of pitman shorthand or gregg shorthand,
> >| which were once used daily by thousands of people.
> >
> >For my part this is mainly because I haven't looked at those systems
> >very closely yet. It does seem to make sense to include them, but I am
> >incapable at this point to say anything sensible about them.
> >
> >| both these systems were partly "featural", pitman i think more than
> >| gregg.
> >
> >Why were they only partly featural? What about them is it that makes
> >them fail to be featural?
> >
> >--Lars M.
> >
> >
> >www.egroups.com/group/qalam - world's writing systems.
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> >
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> --
> William Bright
> Professor Emeritus of Linguistics & Anthropology, UCLA
> Professor Adjoint of Linguistics, University of Colorado, Boulder
> Editor, Written Language and Literacy
> Editor, Native American Placenames of the United States
> 1625 Mariposa Avenue, Boulder, CO 80302
> Tel. 303-444-4274
> FAX 303-413-0017
> Email william.bright@..., williamobright@...
>
> William Bright's website: http://www.ncidc.org/bright
>
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