Re: Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti

Thanks Jim, I thought of that about the double satta, but that doesn't seem like a strong argument, since Pali seems okay with such doubling in other circumstances, no? I can see how it was a long shot suggesting the connection there though.

jāti in this passage does seem clearly to be referring to birth in the ordinary sense:

yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, jāti.

The commentary says:

yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānanti idaṃ “imesaṃ nāmā”ti niyamābhāvato sabbasattānaṃ pariyādānavacanaṃ.

So the function of tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ seems clear at least, delineating the boundary as relating to all beings, not just "of these".

This all came from someone trying to argue for a deeper meaning to what they saw as plural births inferred by English translations like "The birth of the various beings". So I'm trying to understand the grammar behind what appears to be birth in the singular.

Is tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ maybe to be understood as referring to beings individually? Something like "each and every being"? Or is it simply that birth here means the general concept, as opposed to a specific event?

On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 11:49 AM jimanderson.on@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

I agree with Balaji and Ma Vajira that sattānaṃ should be connected to jāti but I can see a problem with sattānaṃ being in the plural with the English "birth" for "jāti".. It somehow clashes in also suggesting the birth of multiple beings simultaneously into a group of other beings. I think "production" would work better in this case.

One good argument against connecting sattānaṃ to sattanikāye is that it's already in the compound sattanikāye which is a 6th case tappurisa resolved into "sattānaṃ nikāye".

Best wishes,

Jim

From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: January 4, 2019 9:03 AM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [palistudy] Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti

Dear friends,
I'm wondering about the relationship between sattānaṃ and jāti in the passage Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti
Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is "The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings"
But the grammar doesn't seem to support exactly this translation, though I admit my Pali grammar understanding is not great.
yā jāti is singular of course, and yā seems to suggest a literal singular birth, which wouldn't really make sense if it was "the birth of beings". sattānaṃ comes before sattanikāye so wouldn't it make better sense to relate the two and translate as something like "that birth in this or that being-group of these or those beings"?
I'm not actually trying to criticize the translation, as it seems fine for general purposes, I'm just trying to understand whether sattānaṃ is possessive of sattanikāye or jāti.
Thanks,
Yuttadhammo

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Posted by: Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu <yuttadhammo@...>
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