Re: Vivicca

 

Hi Bryan,

 

I think the Dhātupāṭha MW references is that of Westergaard’s which can be downloaded from archive.org. Use the search string “Westergaard radices” which returns 5 items to choose from. The one in Bohtlingk’s Grammatik is the one H. Smith refers to in his Saddanīti edition.

 

I found some intresting material in the Abh-ṭ on the root vic. (vica vivecane, puthubhāve ca). A native Skt. dictionary explains vivecana as viveka. Looking up the latter one finds a list of 6 meanings in Sanskrit including vicāra. Abh 1114 only gives vicāre as the meaning of viveko, but the ṭīkā adds two more.

Best,

 

Jim

 

From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: April 6, 2018 1:55 PM
To: Balaji balaji.ramasubramanian@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Vivicca

 

Hi Balaji,

I think you're still right about the derivation of vivicca   = Skt. vivicya ("having separated from"), with normal change of -cy- > -cc-.

 

It looks like vic and vyac are related in some way as MW has "cf. vic". MW gives it as a class 6 verb with 3^rd. sing. as vicati (vyacati > vicati, which is irreg. as one would expect vacati), but the meanings are quite different (from the root vic) and there doesn’t appear to be any form with the vi- prefix, vi-vyac.The gerund form of vi-vyac (if it existed) would be vivyacya > vivacca,in Pāli, but since other forms also change the -a- > -i- (the past participle for example is vicitvā, not vicatvā), then this one too would change to vivicca, which would make them the same form and perhaps a homonym.

 

The primary meaning of vic is to separate and the vi prefix seems to be an emphatic in this case, emphasizing “apart”, “asunder” “away from” etc., whereas the primary meaning of vyac is “encompass” “contain” “comprehend”. vic also has the meaning of “discern” “judge” which is related to vyac “comprehend”.And vi-vic has the meaning of “discriminate” “distinguish” “discern” “ponder” which also seems to be related to vyac, “comprehend”.

 

So in fact they may be related as to meaning and vivicca in the first jhāna may refer to both, “having separated onself from akusalehi dhammehi, etc.,” and “having comprehended”. The flaw in that possibility is of course the ablative, as one would have expected an accusative case, but one could stretch it and call it an instrumental of cause ("having comprehended because of unwholesome phenomena"). In any case this is just speculation. MW also has the meaning "cheat", "trick" "deceive for  vyac > vicati  and that might also work in the first  jhāna with an instrumental of means, but again just speculation

 

For the Dhātup, MW references xxviii, 12. Since I don’t have a copy of the Dhātupāṭha, does anyone know of one online that I can check?

 

Mettā,

 

Bryan

 

 

I think you're still right about the derivcation of vivicca   = Skt. vivicya ("having separated from"), with normal change of -cy- > -cc-.

 

It looks like vic and vyac are related in some way as MW has "cf. vic". MW gives it as a class 6 verb with 3^rd. sing. as vicati (vyacati > vicati, which is irreg. as one would expect vacati), but the meanings are quite different and there doesn’t appear to be any form with the vi- prefix, vi-vyac.The gerund form of vi-vyac (if it existed) would be vivyacya > vivacca,in Pāli, but since other forms also change the -a- > -i- (the past participle for example is vicitvā, not vicatvā), then this one too would change to vivicca, which would make them the same form and perhaps a homonym.

 

The primary meaning of vic is to separate and the vi prefix seems to be an emphatic in this case, emphasizing “apart”, “asunder” “away from” etc., whereas the primary meaning of vyac is “encompass” “contain” “comprehend”. vic also has the meaning of “discern” “judge” which is related to vyac “comprehend”.And vi-vic has the meaning of “discriminate” “distinguish” “discern” “ponder” which also seems to be related to vyac, “comprehend”.

 

So in fact they may be related as to meaning and vivicca in the first jhāna may refer to both, “having separated onself from akusalehi dhammehi, etc.,” and “having comprehended”. The flaw in that possibility is of course the ablative, as one would have expected an accusative case, but one could stretch it and call it an instrumental of cause ("having comprehended because of unwholesome phenomena"). In any case this is just speculation. MW also has the meaning "cheat", "trick" "deceive for 

vyac > vicati

and that might also work in jhāna 1 with an instrumental of means, but again just speculation

 

For the Dhātup, MW references xxviii, 12. Since I don’t have a copy of the Dhātupāṭha, does anyone know of one online that I can check?

 

Mettā,

 

Bryan

 

 

On Friday, April 6, 2018, 1:08:59 AM EDT, Balaji balaji.ramasubramanian@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Bryan,

 

As it turns out I realize the root of vicati is vyac.. I got the root wrong. So I was wrong about the derivation of vivicya. The derivation should apparently be:

 

vi + vyac + ńīp + lyap = vivicya

 

The derivation is confusing to me. I am still reading up on the derivation. But the gist of it seems to be that vicati is like saying “causing to be included”, or “causing to be contained”. So you need to transform the vyac root by using the causative suffix. I’m puzzled about how the transformation actually works. All sorts of Paninian gymnastics with the rules - that’s all I can say right now.

 

About vicāra I meant to reply with a clarification email saying that my last paragraph of speculation on vicāra and vicati is just some musing on the side and not serious technical scholarship. I didn’t say that vicāra is etymologically derived from vyac (or vic as I thought at that time). I speculatively said that ancient Indians might have seen an “ethmological connection” between vicati and vicāra. But I didn’t mean it as a technical etymological connection.

 

But I’m sorry for that sloppy way I speculated. I’m sorry if it confused more than make things clear. For some reason, I get the intuitive feeling that the words should be related, but they are not truly derived from the same root.

 

Thanks,

Balaji

 

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:39 AM Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Dear Balaji,

 

Thanks for this explanation. I can't seem to find vic/vicati anywhere. Skt vic/vinakit is a class 7 verb with a nasal infix and does not seem to have the meaning of "include" or "understand" (closest to this latter meaning is "discriminate, "judge"). And I can't find anything in Pali for vicati. Vicāra I believe is from vi + carati.

 

The close connection between vicāra as “holding in mind” and sati makes sense, but are they indeed etymologically connected (not vicāra and sati, but vicāra with the meaning of "including")?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Mettā, Bryan

On Thursday, April 5, 2018, 3:03:44 AM EDT, Balaji balaji.ramasubramanian@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

Hi Jim,

 

Yes, vic is the correct root. In fact, vivicya in Sanskrit is etymologically related to viveka - the former means “having secluded” and the latter means “seclusion”.

 

vi + vic + lyap = vivicya

 

The whole first phrase of the jhāna formula has to do with secluding oneself from something.

 

There are many etymological connections. vicati is the verb for the vic dhātu in the parasmaipadī form. It is an ubhayapadī dhātu - at least in Paninian Sanskrit. It has the meaning of including, or containing - in this context. For example:

 

ghaTo udakam vicati

The pot contains water

 

In a recent issue of an Indian Sanskrit monthly magazine that I subscribe to, I remember seeing this usage:

so grāmavidyālayo bālāH api vicati

That village school includes girls too

 

Now the vi prefix acts as a negation:

 

vi + vicati = preclude, seclude, cause to be without

 

Now, as it happens, vicati has another meaning too. It also means to comprehend or understand something. For example:

 

so bahūn granthān vicati (Skt)

so bahave ganthe vicati (Pali)

He comprehends many scriptures

 

In this context, translating vicati as “contains” or “includes” would not make much sense. So because of this other meaning of comprehension, now you can see how vic dhātu has to do with both vicāra and vicaya. When we read a little about the kāraka of the vic dhātu, we understand that both the meaning of containing/including, and comprehending are related, because comprehending something has to do with holding it in the mind.

 

And consequently vivicati in this secondary context would mean to forget. A classic usage is found in the Mahābhārata, classical Indian epic, where Karna (nemesis of the hero Arjuna) forgets his mantra and loses in battle:

 

kāle suvīro vivicet mantrarudram raNe rudhe...

In time the great hero forgets the divine mantra, during the fierce battle...

 

On a sidenote: this clearly shows that in ancient India, the act of holding something in the mind, the act of memory - or sati - often translated as mindfulness, was crucial for the purpose of comprehension. And when we hold something in mind (vicāra) as the main and central theme (ekaggatā) for long periods of time, secluded from distracting objects, then there is concentration on that object. So it is possible to see why in the Suttas jhāna and sati always go together. To native speakers of Pali, these etymological connections between, vicāra and vicati would have been only too obvious, and they could not have seen satipatthāna and jhāna as separate forms of meditation, but as directly connected aspects of the same meditation.

 

Thanks,

Balaji

 

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 5:42 PM 'James Anderson' jimanderson.on@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hi again Kåre,

After looking a little further, I found two grammatical suttas (Sd 1203 and Kc 598) confirming that √vic is the root of vivicca. Interestingly, Mmd on Kc 598 gives vivecane (investigating, distinguishing MW, not in PED) as the meaning of the root which differs from the Sanskrit one in the Dhātupāṭha I quoted in my earlier message. Mmd also provides a step-by-step analysis of the formation of vivicca. This work dates back to the 10th-11th cent.

Jim

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Balaji

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Balaji