From: Dc Wijeratna
Message: 4087
Date: 2014-12-06
Dear Bryan
“I'm not sure that avecca and vicaya/vicāra are related”
1. Your statement is true. It follows from an important corollary of the Ariyan Truths (Laws) enunciated by Lord Buddha. All beings in Samsara (including humans of course) are not able to see things as they are(Avijja). That is because all humans, irrespective of caste, creed, colour, race etc. have Vicikiccha: The meaning of this, in simplest terms is you are unable to decide on a future course of action. This fundamental idea, inability to decide (vici) on a (future) course of action (kicchā) can be expressed in many ways. The expression of this idea is primarily dependent on the means of communication. It could be just a gesture; good example, I have in mind is a smile or a shake of the head, raising eyebrows etc.
2. Sanskrit interpretation is not Lord’s Dhamma. The Lord, in fact, prohibited it and made a Vinaya rule about it. The skeleton of the story is in the Preface of Childer’s, page xi. I follow the rules laid down by the Lord in attempting to understand the words of the Lord.
D.C.
Dear D. C.I'm not sure that avecca and vicaya/vicāra are related. The first of these (vicaya) is usually derived from the root vi + ci ("to search through, investigate, examine"). Dhammavicaya, I think of as a positive action, so why would one negativize it with an a- prefix? vicāra is usually derived from the root vi + car ("ponder, reflect, consider").The root vic means "discriminate, discern, judge". Again, why would one negativize this?This problem does not arise with ava + i = Skt. *avetya = Pāli avecca "having understood", nor with the other derivation of the grammarians from veti, "disappears", with negativizing prefix a + absolutive vetya = avetya > avecca, "not having disappeared" = "permanent, stable".Best wishes, Bryan
From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] avagamana
Dear Bryan, Ven. Bodhi, and JimAvecca, Acala and AvetiMy comments are as follows:1. To start with I must make a confession. I don’t know Sanskrit; I don’t know Pali (language) either.2. I accept only the words attributed to Lord Buddha (Bhagavā Buddho, usually shortened Bhagavā in the Suttas.) as the vocabulary of the Teaching of the Buddha; not Buddhism.3. For me everything else, that is the commentaries, the grammars, the dictionaries etc, are interpretations.I shall first consider the word Aveccappasāda.Aveccappasada4. The word is a combination of Avecca and Pasāda.5. Avecca comes from the root Vic (Dhammavicaya, vicāra etc.) It means scattering of thoughts. Avecca is that the thoughts are steady; thus the commonly accepted translation unshakeable for Avecca.6. PED gives 10 meanings to the word Pasāda. Which meaning is correct?7. PED gives faith (So does Childer’s) as one of the meanings of Pasāda. PTS (Rhys Davids) has used this word in the translation of number of very important Suttas. E.g. Sampasāsādanīya Sutta (DN). Use of this word has resulted in a completely non-contextual interpretation of the Sutta.8. Pasāda means to be pleased. This is difficult to define; it is a mental state.Acala9 Acala means fixed, not moving, static. It is a + cala. This word helps in understanding the meaning of Avecca. (the phrase comes “acalā supatiṭṭita” comes to my mind).Aveti1. This is not a word used by the Lord Buddha. More accurately, I could not find the word in the Sutta Pitaka or Vinaya Pitaka.2. However, I found the word in the Commentaries. For me commentaries are interpretations. So they have no value. But more importantly, we have no way of giving them a meaning. I give below three instances of aveti in the commentaries.2.1 yo aveti jānātīti attho2.2 yo aveti avagacchati2.3 yo yathāvuttaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ aveti avagacchati3. It is not possible to say, which one is correct; there is no reference. Actually all three are ‘correct’. That is the way the commentator felt.According to my Lord, never waste time arguing about views (Kalama Sutta. Totally misunderstood, especially, since Jayatilleke--Early Buddhist theory of Knowledge)D.C.On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Dear D. C., Ven. Bodhi, and Jim,Yes there is another tradition equating avecca with acala referred to in the Sārattha-ppakāsinī 2, 74, line 4 (mentioned in the CPD)avecca-ppasādenā ti, avigatena acala-ppasādenawhere the commentator is deriving avecca from a + veti ("disappears"), meaning "not having disappeared", that is, faith that is permanent and unshakeable.But the usual understanding is as Ven. Bodhi has said, past participle of aveti (< Skt. ave, "understand, know"). The word has indeed caused some perplexity over the years. The PED says, "the form is not sufficiently clear semantically" and Childers says "whose exact meaning I don't know". Sadd refers to Rūpasiddhi 627, but I see nothing there. There is no Sanskrit equivalent that I am aware of, with BHS avetya, being a back-translation from the Pāli.Mettā,Bryan
From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2014 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] avagamana
"It is similar with the absolutive avecca (based on the verb aveti <-- ava + eti), used to describe the pasaada of a sotaapanna"Avecca in aveccappasaada is usually translated unshakeable-pasaada.It is one of the achievements required of a sotapanna.Its meaning can only be guessed at. Any meaning given to it is a mere opinion (a belief).No amount of discussion can resolve the issue.Only things based on facts can be resolved.--On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 6:41 PM, Bhikkhu Bodhi venbodhi@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Dear Jim,
The verb avagacchati and noun avagamana are not related to the idea of the Buddha as an avatar. The verb means "to understand" and the noun means "understanding." See Cone's Dictionary of Paali, Part I.
It is similar with the absolutive avecca (based on the verb aveti <-- ava + eti), used to describe the pasaada of a sotaapanna. This also literally means "gone down," but signifies understanding via direct experience. In fact, the English word itself, "understanding," does not mean "to stand beneath," nor does "undergo" mean "to go down." Meanings arise from implicit metaphors but they acquire a life of their own.
With metta,
Bhikkhu Bodhi
On 12/4/2014 6:47 AM, 'Jim Anderson' jimanderson.on@... [palistudy] wrote:
Hi Bryan,
Thanks for quoting from the Namakkārapāḷi-ṭīkā. Despite it being a modern
work it is still useful. The four meanings given for the verbal root 'budh'
parallel those given in the Sadd with gamana being connected to avagamana
(to go down, descend) which seem to relate to the Indian idea of the Buddha
as Avatar.
An investigation of the word 'buddha' and all the other words derived from
'budh' is certainly enough to keep one busy for a very long time.
Thanks for all the contributions you and everyone else have been posting.
It/s been a lively discussion.
Best wishes,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy]"
<palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: December 3, 2014 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] budh and vikasana
Thanks Petra,
It's probably not much use then in terms of historical etymology, unless his
sources are very traditional,
Best wishes, Bryan
From: "Petra Kieffer-Pülz kiepue@... [palistudy]"
<palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] budh and vikasana
The Namakkārapāli-ṭīkā is by a Burmese Revata (1874-1954) and dates from
1945.
Best,Petra
-- Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Chuang Yen Monastery 2020 Route 301 Carmel NY 10512 U.S.A. To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around the world, please check: Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/ Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/ For my Dhamma lectures and teachings: http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes) http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23DE0292227250FA For my public photo albums: http://picasaweb.google.com/venbodhi Sabbe sattā averā hontu, abyāpajjā hontu, anighā hontu, sukhī hontu! 願眾生無怨，願眾生無害，願眾生無惱，願眾生快樂！ May all beings be free from enmity, free from affliction, free from distress. May they be happy!
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--Metta is being friendly to everybody
--Metta is being friendly to everybody