Re: Paali

Dear Bryan

"My understanding is that the Buddha was born in Lumbini and grew up in Kapilavatthu"

So is mine. My authority is the Naalaka Sutta, Sutta Nipaata. Stanza 683, pg. 116 of Norman's translation. Here is his translation:

"That Bodhisatta, excellent jewel, incomparable, has been born has been born in the world of men for (their) benefit and happiness, in the village of the Sakyans, in the Lumbini country. Therefore, we are exultant, exceedingly happy."

I think Norman used the word "Bodhisatto" advisedly and I accept that. This is why I use the term Lord Buddha (Buddho Bhagavaa).

In the Mahaapadaana Sutta DN 2 the word Kapilavatthu occurs three times. Here the passage: ‘‘Mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, etarahi suddhodano nāma rājā pitā ahosi. Māyā nāma devī mātā ahosi janetti. Kapilavatthu nāma nagaraṃ rājadhānī ahosī’’ti. Idamavoca bhagavā,

The words Magadha and Kosala both occur many times in the Sutta Pitaka. The relationship appears to be that they were adjoining kingdoms,At times Magadha dominated Kosala and other times Kosala dominated Magadha.

With regard to the classification of the language as Indic, this is a highly controversial matter. See Wikipedia.

All we have is the texts of the Tiptaka. I consider that as the the corpus of the language. Call it Pali, Magadhi, Kosala or any other name.

This is how I think about this matter because of my training and education. Knowledge is possible only of the real tangible world. The rest is speculation.

Sukhii hotu (may you be happy and well)

D.C.

P.S. Sukhii hotu is from Lord Buddha

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Bryan Levman bryan.levman@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Dear D. C.

My understanding is that the Buddha was born in Lumbini and grew up in Kapilavatthu, which is the capital of the gaṇsaṅgha (republic) of the Sakya clan. The Sakyas were vassals of King Pasenadi of Kosala. Rhys Davids suggests that the Buddha therefore spoke Kosalan, which is another Middle Indic dialect, probably closely related to Māgadhī,

Best wishes,

Bryan

From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]" <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Paali

Dear Jim,

Thank you for the reply.

I agree with you that "norm" is peculiar. That is why I put "literary language". The writing of the Pali canon was in Sri Lanka (general consensus. Something like Pali Sammuti.)

Let me put forward a proposal. Let's define Maagadhi as the language the people of Magadha spoke. This is a non controversial definition. Of course, we don't know anything about the Maagadhi language. Bodhisatta was born in Magadha (again consensus, I don't know, well I have heard). It is not possible for him to have learnt any other language. Hence we can be sure that the words in the first four Nikaayas and some in the Khuddhaka belong to Maagadhi, especially where Lord Buddha was involved in the "samaya"--meeting or occassion.

There is a full discussion of this in the PREFACE of the Childers Dictionary on the origin of Pali. Please do read this preface; in my opinion it is the most rational discussion of Paali (not Pali)

With regard to the mass I used the definition from the OD (website): A noun denoting something which cannot be counted (e.g. a substance or quality).

OD gives collective noun for for something like samuuhika naama.

Best wishes

D.C.

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:58 PM, 'Jim Anderson' jimanderson.on@... [palistudy] <palistudy@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Dear D.C.,

The "norm" seems rather peculiar in the PED article on Pāli. Rhys Davids
translates "dhamma" as "norm" in his DN translation. It'll be interesting to
see Cone's article on pāli/pāḷi when her DOP III comes out. The word
presents many problems in going about getting a better understaning of its
meanings and usage down through the centuries which comes as no surprise as
the same applies to most Pali words when one starts to delve in.

As for your remark on "mass nouns", I'm not sure if I agree. In English
usage, a mass noun is defined as a common noun, concrete or abstract, that
is uncountable, e.g., butter (concrete), music (abstract). But perhaps
you/re thinking of samūhikanāmas such as bowl, cloth, person? PED gives
multitude, mass, aggregate in defining "samūha".

Best wishes,

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dc Wijeratna dcwijeratna@... [palistudy]"
<palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
To: <palistudy@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: November 17, 2014 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Paali

Dear Jim, Bryan and all

1. PTSD gives one more meaning to Paali, norm. It is from that it goes to
"literary language".

2. I agree with the Saddaniti interpretation as rakkhane. Rakkhane means
protection. Protection is a mass noun. Protection has to be provided by
somebody or something. with authority. Examples, Dhamma and Vinaya (Dhammo
have rakkhati dhammacaari.n); It is the Dhamma and Vinaya of the Bhagavaa;
Bridge provides protection by giving us a safe passage across. Teacher
commands: "Fall in line!" (Discipline) so on and so forth.

3. All Buddhist traditions are later than Lord Buddha. So they are
interpretations.

4. In the Dhamma of the Lord, the word occurs in compound words. I have
found Ambapaali and Upaali.

Upaali is the authority on Vinaya as we know. By the way in Dhamma of the
Lord, names almost always are mass nouns.

Best wishes

D.C.

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Posted by: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
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Metta is being friendly to everybody

Metta is being friendly to everybody