Re: Pacala vs. Capala

Dear Khristos,

Thank you very much for your explanation and useful references. I also
found the MW defines the root kamp also as tremble, shaking, etc. see the
attached file Kamp_MW for info. This is the same as in Pali, when the
root constitutes the verb kampati or noun kampana.

For venerable Yuttadhammo's request, please look at the attached pdf file.
Your electronic tipitaka is correct in listing pacala- in the abhidhamma and
Nagita-sutta in pancaka-nipata. But Nagita-sutta in the atthaka-nipata
writes capala-. The Mahaniddesa also relates capalaayika with middha -
drowsiness. Probably it is as Ole said, capala- is typical Thai. I found the
Buddhajayanti and Thai Khun of Chieng Tung write pacala- in those instances

Metta,
Chanida

On 21 November 2010 15:30, Khristos Nizamis <nizamisk@...> wrote:

>
>
> Pardon me, I must make a small but very important correction to the
> second-to-last sentence in my previous post. It should say:
>
> MW derives cāpala from the form capala - and thus, once again, from the
> root
> KAMP. There is a cognate in Greek, as it turns out, in the verb kamptō, to
> bend, to round, to turn; Stamatakos and Hofmann derive this from an IE root
> *qamp. (I'm curious to find out more about this supposed deriviation, but
> I'll have to defer further digging till later.)
>
> So perhaps this may still leave open the question of a relationship of
> capala to the root CUP. (If I find out anything further, I'll let you
> know.)
>
> Metta,
> Kh.
>
>
> On 21 November 2010 14:35, Khristos Nizamis <nizamisk@...<nizamisk%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > Your discussion got me interested, and so I dug around a little in the
> > reference works I have at hand. In case it might be of some use to you,
> > here is a summary of the information I found. These notes are purely
> > 'etymological', and make no reference to the textual aspect of your
> > discussion.
> >
> > The most important point is that the two words pacala and capala (and
> their
> > various other forms) appear to be quite unrelated etymologically.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pacala = Skt pracala, derives from a root CAL, calati, which appears to
> be
> > a later variant of the root CAR, carati. But the senses of pra-carati and
> > pra-calati (with the prefix) are rather distinct.
> >
> >
> >
> > Capala, on the other hand, according to MW and Böthlingk and Roth,
> derives
> > from a root KAMP, kampate, kampana. However, there is another connection
> > possible if we consider the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit capalaṃ, which in
> > meaning is linked to the Sanskrit cāpala, and which might therefore be
> > related to a root CUP, copati.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is some more background detail to fill out these points.
> >
> >
> >
> > I. About pacala
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. In the Pali context, according to PED:
> >
> >
> >
> > pacala (pa + cala): shaking, trembling, wavering
> >
> > pacalati (pa + calati): to dangle
> >
> > pacalāyati (as was said earlier, quasi-denominative or causative from
> > pacala, pa + cal): to make (the eyelid) waver, to wink, to be sleepy,
> nod,
> > begin to doze
> >
> >
> >
> > cala: moving, quivering; unsteady, fickle, transient
> >
> > calati (PED here rightly supposes a possible connection with CAR, carati)
> > to move, stir, be agitated, tremble, be confused, waver
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. In the Sanskrit context, Whitney describes CAL, calati, to stir, as a
> > later variation of CAR, carati, ‘to move’. Coulson defines the two forms
> > thus:
> >
> >
> >
> > CAR, carati, move, go; depart; behave, act; do, effect
> >
> > CAL, calati, stir, move, go away
> >
> >
> >
> > Edgerton glosses both forms as ‘to move’, and Apte includes the sense ‘to
> > move’ as second in his definition of calati.
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. Moving on now to P. pacalati / Skt. pracalati:
> >
> >
> >
> > Monier Williams (echoing, of course, Böhtlingk and Roth) defines:
> >
> >
> >
> > pra-CAL, pracalati, to be set in motion, tremble, quake; to stir, move
> on,
> > advance, set out, depart; etc
> >
> > pracalayati (caus.) to set in motion, move, jog, wag
> >
> > pracalāyati (caus.) to cause to shake or tremble, to stir up
> >
> >
> >
> > pracala (mfn), moving, tremulous, shaking
> >
> >
> >
> > These may be compared against:
> >
> >
> >
> > pra-CAR, pracarati to proceed towards, go or come to, arrive at; to come
> > forth, appear; to roam, wander; etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > pracara (m.) a road, path, way; usage, custom, currency
> >
> >
> >
> > The following definition of Edgerton is of note:
> >
> >
> >
> > pracalāyati (= Pali pacalāyati): to nod (the head, in sleep, while
> > sitting upright)
> >
> >
> >
> > This sense is of course also cited by Geiger at §186.5 (cf. Th 200), and
> > Oberlies §51(b): shakes the head (in sleep), nods; as was noted earlier
> in
> > the discussion.
> >
> >
> >
> > Edgerton also lists -pracālaka (at end of compounds), shaking, moving.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > II. About capala
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. In the Pali context, according to PED:
> >
> >
> >
> > capala: moving to and fro, wavering, trembling, unsteady, fickle
> >
> >
> >
> > PED links capala to Skt. cāpa, bow, and posits an IE root *qep, to quake
> or
> > quiver.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. In the Sanskrit context
> >
> >
> >
> > capala: moving to and fro, shaking, trembling, unsteady, wavering;
> wanton,
> > fickle, inconstant; inconsiderate, thoughtless, ill-mannered; etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > MW and Böthlingk and Roth cite a root KAMP, kampate, kampati: to tremble,
> > shake; kampayate, kampayati (causative) to cause or make to tremble,
> shake;
> > kampana, trembling, shaken, unsteady; causing to tremble, shaking
> >
> >
> >
> > Edgerton lists an adverb capalaṃ , noting that it is “rare in Sanskrit,
> not
> > recorded in Pali, but [in] Ardha-Māgadhī , capalaṃ, cavalaṃ: quickly”.
> >
> >
> >
> > Through meaning, this would link Edgerton’s Ardha-Māgadhī capalaṃ with
> > the Skt cāpala: mobility, swiftness; agitation, unsteadiness; fickleness,
> > inconsiderateness, insolence.
> >
> >
> >
> > MW cites for this cāpala a root CAP, but the only root CAP he actually
> > lists is (cl. 1) capati, to caress, soothe, console, (cl. 10) capayati,
> to
> > pound, knead.
> >
> >
> > This raises the question of whether a relationship to the root CUP
> > (Whitney: copati, cupita, to stir; MW: copati, to move) might somehow be
> > plausible.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 21 November 2010 03:48, Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...<yuttadhammo%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Chanida Jantrasrisalai <
> >> jchanida@... <jchanida%40googlemail.com> <jchanida%
> 40googlemail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> > There may be a confusion between editions of the Thai Tipiṭaka here.
> >> >
> >> > The present Syamraṭṭha Pali Tipiṭaka is published by the MahamakutR.
> So
> >> I
> >> > suppose what you meant by the MMR Pali is the same as the Syamraṭṭha
> >> > edition. To my knowledge, the MMR does not have another Pali edition.
> It
> >> has
> >> > only the Thai translation of the Tipitaka along with the commentaries
> >> which
> >> > you refer to as ‘Mahamakut Thai Tipitaka.’ Anyone who knows more may
> >> help
> >> > add up to our knowledge.
> >> >
> >> Thank you, I realize my mistake now... indeed I see capala in the Siam
> >> Rattha Tipitaka. Now that I know they are the same, I looked up the
> >> definition of middha in the Dhammasangani, and the Siam Rattha Tipitaka
> >> has
> >> pacalaayikaa.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Back to your question re capala-, I found the MMR Pali uses
> >> capalāyamānaṃ
> >> > and capalāyamāno throughout the Moggallana-sutta. capalāyamānaṃ is
> also
> >> used
> >> > in Nāgita sutta.
> >> >
> >> I still find pacalāyamānaṃ in the Nāgita sutta for the Siam Rattha
> >> tipitaka. Can you check again to be sure?
> >>
> >>
> >> > There are also other instances of capala- such as capalaṃ, capalā,
> >> > capalanā, capalatā, etc. It is observed that capalā, capalaṃ,
> capalanā,
> >> > capalatā are generally related to slyness, pretention, fickleness and
> so
> >> on
> >> > which indicates the changeable and unpredictable nature, while the
> verb
> >> > capalāyasi and the present participle capalāyamāna are always related
> to
> >> > thīnamiddha – drowsiness, hence ‘nodding’ as Ven. Thanissaro
> translates.
> >> >
> >> I am not convinced of this... can you give me other instances of
> >> capalāyasi
> >> and capalāyamāna in the Siam Rattha tipitaka used in the sense of
> >> drowsiness? I hope the electronic version I have is accurate in giving
> >> pacala both in the Nāgita sutta and the Dhammasangani.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>
> >> Brother Noah
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>



--

*Inner Peace,*



*Chanida *

Australia

Tel. +61-4-3019-8648


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