Re: Pacala vs. Capala

Pardon me, I must make a small but very important correction to the
second-to-last sentence in my previous post.  It should say:

MW derives cāpala from the form capala - and thus, once again, from the root
KAMP.  There is a cognate in Greek, as it turns out, in the verb kamptō, to
bend, to round, to turn; Stamatakos and Hofmann derive this from an IE root
*qamp.  (I'm curious to find out more about this supposed deriviation, but
I'll have to defer further digging till later.)

So perhaps this may still leave open the question of a relationship of
capala to the root CUP.  (If I find out anything further, I'll let you
know.)

Metta,
Kh.



On 21 November 2010 14:35, Khristos Nizamis <nizamisk@...> wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> Your discussion got me interested, and so I dug around a little in the
> reference works I have at hand.  In case it might be of some use to you,
> here is a summary of the information I found.  These notes are purely
> 'etymological', and make no reference to the textual aspect of your
> discussion.
>
> The most important point is that the two words pacala and capala (and their
> various other forms) appear to be quite unrelated etymologically.
>
>
>
> Pacala = Skt pracala, derives from a root CAL, calati, which appears to be
> a later variant of the root CAR, carati.  But the senses of pra-carati and
> pra-calati (with the prefix) are rather distinct.
>
>
>
> Capala, on the other hand, according to MW and Böthlingk and Roth, derives
> from a root KAMP, kampate, kampana.  However, there is another connection
> possible if we consider the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit capalaṃ, which in
> meaning is linked to the Sanskrit cāpala, and which might therefore be
> related to a root CUP, copati.
>
>
>
> Here is some more background detail to fill out these points.
>
>
>
> I. About pacala
>
>
>
> 1.  In the Pali context, according to PED:
>
>
>
> pacala (pa + cala): shaking, trembling, wavering
>
> pacalati (pa + calati): to dangle
>
> pacalāyati (as was said earlier, quasi-denominative or causative from
> pacala, pa + cal): to make (the eyelid) waver, to wink, to be sleepy, nod,
> begin to doze
>
>
>
> cala: moving, quivering; unsteady, fickle, transient
>
> calati (PED here rightly supposes a possible connection with CAR, carati)
> to move, stir, be agitated, tremble, be confused, waver
>
>
>
> 2. In the Sanskrit context, Whitney describes CAL, calati, to stir, as a
> later variation of CAR, carati, ‘to move’.  Coulson defines the two forms
> thus:
>
>
>
> CAR, carati, move, go; depart; behave, act; do, effect
>
> CAL, calati, stir, move, go away
>
>
>
> Edgerton glosses both forms as ‘to move’, and Apte includes the sense ‘to
> move’ as second in his definition of calati.
>
>
>
> 3. Moving on now to P. pacalati / Skt. pracalati:
>
>
>
> Monier Williams (echoing, of course, Böhtlingk and Roth) defines:
>
>
>
> pra-CAL, pracalati, to be set in motion, tremble, quake; to stir, move on,
> advance, set out, depart; etc
>
> pracalayati (caus.) to set in motion, move, jog, wag
>
> pracalāyati (caus.) to cause to shake or tremble, to stir up
>
>
>
> pracala (mfn), moving, tremulous, shaking
>
>
>
> These may be compared against:
>
>
>
> pra-CAR, pracarati to proceed towards, go or come to, arrive at; to come
> forth, appear; to roam, wander; etc.
>
>
>
> pracara (m.) a road, path, way; usage, custom, currency
>
>
>
> The following definition of Edgerton is of note:
>
>
>
> pracalāyati (=  Pali pacalāyati): to nod (the head, in sleep, while
> sitting upright)
>
>
>
> This sense is of course also cited by Geiger at §186.5 (cf. Th 200), and
> Oberlies §51(b): shakes the head (in sleep), nods; as was noted earlier in
> the discussion.
>
>
>
> Edgerton also lists -pracālaka (at end of compounds), shaking, moving.
>
>
>
>
>
> II. About capala
>
>
>
> 1. In the Pali context, according to PED:
>
>
>
> capala: moving to and fro, wavering, trembling, unsteady, fickle
>
>
>
> PED links capala to Skt. cāpa, bow, and posits an IE root *qep, to quake or
> quiver.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2. In the Sanskrit context
>
>
>
> capala: moving to and fro, shaking, trembling, unsteady, wavering; wanton,
> fickle, inconstant; inconsiderate, thoughtless, ill-mannered; etc.
>
>
>
> MW and Böthlingk and Roth cite a root KAMP, kampate, kampati: to tremble,
> shake; kampayate, kampayati (causative) to cause or make to tremble, shake;
> kampana, trembling, shaken, unsteady; causing to tremble, shaking
>
>
>
> Edgerton lists an adverb capalaṃ , noting that it is “rare in Sanskrit, not
> recorded in Pali, but [in] Ardha-Māgadhī , capalaṃ, cavalaṃ: quickly”.
>
>
>
> Through meaning, this would link Edgerton’s Ardha-Māgadhī  capalaṃ with
> the Skt cāpala: mobility, swiftness; agitation, unsteadiness; fickleness,
> inconsiderateness, insolence.
>
>
>
> MW cites for this cāpala a root CAP, but the only root CAP he actually
> lists is (cl. 1) capati, to caress, soothe, console, (cl. 10) capayati, to
> pound, knead.
>
>
> This raises the question of whether a relationship to the root CUP
> (Whitney: copati, cupita, to stir; MW: copati, to move) might somehow be
> plausible.
>
>
>
>
> On 21 November 2010 03:48, Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Chanida Jantrasrisalai <
>> jchanida@... <jchanida%40googlemail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> > There may be a confusion between editions of the Thai Tipiṭaka here.
>> >
>> > The present Syamraṭṭha Pali Tipiṭaka is published by the MahamakutR. So
>> I
>> > suppose what you meant by the MMR Pali is the same as the Syamraṭṭha
>> > edition. To my knowledge, the MMR does not have another Pali edition. It
>> has
>> > only the Thai translation of the Tipitaka along with the commentaries
>> which
>> > you refer to as ‘Mahamakut Thai Tipitaka.’ Anyone who knows more may
>> help
>> > add up to our knowledge.
>> >
>> Thank you, I realize my mistake now... indeed I see capala in the Siam
>> Rattha Tipitaka. Now that I know they are the same, I looked up the
>> definition of middha in the Dhammasangani, and the Siam Rattha Tipitaka
>> has
>> pacalaayikaa.
>>
>>
>> > Back to your question re capala-, I found the MMR Pali uses
>> capalāyamānaṃ
>> > and capalāyamāno throughout the Moggallana-sutta. capalāyamānaṃ is also
>> used
>> > in Nāgita sutta.
>> >
>> I still find pacalāyamānaṃ in the Nāgita sutta for the Siam Rattha
>> tipitaka. Can you check again to be sure?
>>
>>
>> > There are also other instances of capala- such as capalaṃ, capalā,
>> > capalanā, capalatā, etc. It is observed that capalā, capalaṃ, capalanā,
>> > capalatā are generally related to slyness, pretention, fickleness and so
>> on
>> > which indicates the changeable and unpredictable nature, while the verb
>> > capalāyasi and the present participle capalāyamāna are always related to
>> > thīnamiddha – drowsiness, hence ‘nodding’ as Ven. Thanissaro translates.
>> >
>> I am not convinced of this... can you give me other instances of
>> capalāyasi
>> and capalāyamāna in the Siam Rattha tipitaka used in the sense of
>> drowsiness? I hope the electronic version I have is accurate in giving
>> pacala both in the Nāgita sutta and the Dhammasangani.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>>
>> Brother Noah
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> 
>>
>
>


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