Re: is rett_thiele signed up?

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
wrote:
> Hi Amara,
>
> Thank you for sharing the interesting information from your friend.
> Yes, I'm interested in acquiring traditional Pali grammar books in
> Thai script. I did start to learn the Thai script some years ago but
> because I don't have any Pali books in this script I haven't had much
> opportunity to read in it. I find that it is quite a beautiful script.
> I can read Pali in Devanagari and Burmese script, so I don't think it
> should be too hard to get used to reading in another.
>

Hi Jim,

I've asked my friend to bring you a complete list of the Pali grammar
books in the Mahamakut Bookstore, if I'm not mistaken they also have
an order form with the address.  I will snailmail the list to you
unless you want me to translate it and email it to you when I get it. 


> I searched the internet for the Mahamakut Bookstore but could find no
> home page nor an email address. I'd like to see their list of
> traditional grammar books for sale as I think I'd want to buy most of
> the titles as long as they have the full text in Pali. It's ok if the
> introductory pages are in the Thai language. If I can't contact them
> online, please send me their postal address and I'll write them a
> letter.
>

Could you please elaborate a little about 'the full text in Pali',
does this mean that the teachings/explanations in Paali and not Thai?
  Or just the Paali excercise to be translated?  I rather doubt the
Thais have Pali lessons explained in Paali, I have only ever heard of
Pali rapidly translated into Thai and vise versa, but not explanations
done in Pali also, at least not in conversations I have attended. 

Pali grammar books printed by the Mahamakut is mainly for bhikkhus
studying the Pali as opposed to the dhamma in Thai, they come in
several levels called 'Parien 1-9' listed in this page

http://www.mahamakuta.inet.co.th/books/books123.html

The lower half of the page with the numbers 1-9 at the end are the
different levels and aspects of Pali required for the student to pass
the exams of each level. 

Other Pali grammar books are listed separately, and generally not
included in the website.  I will send you the list or translate the
list for you if you wish, meanwhile perhaps you would like to browse
the site, which also lists some books in English, although I didn't
see the Kaccayana.


> There's a possibility that a Bhikkhu Pandita may be subscribing to
> this list as he expressed some interest. I just have to get in touch
> with him. He is currently teaching Kaccaayana to three students in
> Taiwan and I think he will be helpful in our study here even though he
> thinks the study of the traditional grammars is suitable only for
> advanced students. Do you know if that is also the normally accepted
> view in Thailand regarding the learning of Pali? If so, I might have
> to shut down this list and disappear. (:
>

Thais have a high respect for bhikkhus and those with pariens are
supposed to be of the highest academic achievements.  But few know
that the pariens mostly study the Pali and not much else, although
their memory need to be excellent in order to memorize the grammar as
well as vocabulary, in order to the translate the ancient texts into
Thai.  In the old days it is even more of a precious skill since most
of the texts were accessible only to Pali literates, unlike now when
most of them have been translated, and there are so many Pali
literates among the bhikkhus and those who had spent a long time as
monks.  Personally I believe that we can study the dhamma in any
languge, as long as they are correctly translated, which is why I
still value those with Pali learning very greatly, but less than I do
the dhamma as applied in daily life of course.  I think the more Pali
scholars we have the more chance of having correctly translated books,
which would be invaluable, such as in the case of the Thai scholars,
these texts have been translated over and over for centuries, and when
the language had mutated, others would add their scholarship to try to
keep the meanings according to the original Pali as much as possible.
  Which doesn't mean that there hasn't been any changes, but the texts
are still comprehensible to dhamma students, in spite of the extreme
difficulty of the subject matter.  Of course this is just my opinion,


> If you like, you could scan the pictures and upload them to the photo
> section. I'd also be interested in seeing pictures of Thai calligraphy
> of Pali words or passages.
>
> Best wishes.
> Jim
>

These aren't actually Thai script, as you will see when you compare
the modern prints around the photos of the actual stone slabs.  These
are what is believed to be letters the bhikkhus brought with them from
India, similar to the ones Asoka had inscribed in various places.  It
is believed that one of the alphabets is the Thai addition to the
ancient scripture, but it might have been a similarity of the form and
not really of Thai origin.  [Besides, I doubt if they would have added
to or subtracted from the orignal text just to show one Thai alphabet,
they would have respected to original text more than that.]
Apparently the Thais of the area already had their written language to
which the pali was adapted/added.  Which is probably why the Thai
remain more or less sparce grammar but a very rich vocabulary, which
includes many absorbed vocabulary from different languages: Pali,
Sanskrit, Khmer, etc. and currently it still grows, of course.

I have just uploaded three photos I scanned from a book published on
the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the Pra Pathom Chedi to the
photos section at

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/palistudy/lst

[Click on the images for closer look, and on 'full size' for greater
detail.]

The first is a 'transcript' from the stone, the second a carving of
the first sermon Indian style which is quite different from the Thai
images.  The third is the original stone with the inscription, now
displayed at the local museum.

Enjoy,

Amara