Re: bhavata.nhaa vs. ta.nhaa for bhava

Dear Jim,
Thank you very much for the interesting texts. It seems that there are
contradictions, but usually this is because different items are stressed.
There is no end to a study like this, I find. I looked at the Dispeller of
Delusion, and then bhavatanha is accompanied by ditthi.
I looked at Expositor II, p. 471, and p. 475. On p. 471, it seems all kinds
of tanha are enumerated,first kaama, and then bhava: for existence rupa and
arupa, and then, craving for non-existence annihilism. On p. 475, under
asavas, again they are separately enumerated: Passionate desire for life in
a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial exisyence, longing for
jhaana, lust coexistent with an eternalistic view are called the intoxicant
of rebirth, as being desire applied to rebirth. As far as I understand,
these are asavas with the eight lobha-muulacittas, including the clinging to
rupajhaana and arupajhaana and their results, not necessarily with wrong
view.
Again, I looked at Co to Diighanikaaya, Sa.ngiitisutta, the Threes p. 988.
First  is explained about bhavata.nhaa accompanied by ditthi.Then about two
other bhavata.nhaa: ruupaaruupa-bhavesu chanda-raago itaraa dve ta.nhaa.
..He then explains why it is taught differently in the Abh, but I find the
text here complicated:In the Abh. the three kinds of tanha are taught as
included in kaamadhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupadhaatu. It is asked: why has
it been taught thus?   Sabbe pi te-bhuumaka dhamma (Also all dhammas of the
three planes) rajaniiy' a.t.thena ta.nhaa-vatthukaa ti, sabbe ta.nhaa
kaama-ta.nhaaya pariyaadiyitvaa (having controlled) tato niiharitvaa(deduced
therefrom) itaraa dve ta.nhaa daassesi.  And at the end he names these two
again and in addition he says: uccheda-di.t.thi-sahagato raago
nirodha-ta.nhaa, this for non-rebirth, nirodha. The word itaro dve I find
significant, two other kinds. And with these two kinds he adds chanda-raago,
which may represent clinging without di.t.thi. Why otherwise is he saying
this? The sentence in between about all tanha based on the three planes I
find difficult. I shall be grateful if you can help, I am keen on knowing
this. 
When I think of the papa~ncas, proliferations: one can cling without or with
ditthi, or with conceit, I do not see why one cannot cling to jhaana or its
result without di.t.thi. Lobha clings to everything, except lokuttara
dhammas. As you mention, when we consider the fetters that are eradicated at
the stage of arahatship, only then all kinds of clinging to birth are
eradicated. The sotapanna knows that he has seven rebirths at most, he knows
this is because of conditions. Why could he not cling to rebirth in a ruupa
plane? But no self who is reborn. Or he may have conceit about his
attainment of jhaana.
With appreciation,
Nina.      

op 09-07-2002 04:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:

> << Ruupata.nhaadibhedena chabbidhaayeva ta.nhaa pavatti-aakaarabhedato
> kaamata.nhaadivasena tividhaa vuttaa. Ruupata.nhaayeva hi yadaa cakkhussa
> aapaathamaagata.m ruupaaramma.na.m kaamassaadavasena assaadayamaanaa
> pavattati, tadaa kaamata.nhaa naama hoti. Yadaa tadevaaramma.na.m dhuva.m
> sassatanti pavattaaya sassatadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa
> bhavata.nhaa naama hoti. Sassatadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "bhavata.nhaa"ti
> vuccati. Yadaa pana tadevaaramma.na.m ucchijjati vinassatiiti pavattaaya
> ucchedadi.t.thiyaa saddhi.m pavattati, tadaa vibhavata.nhaa naama hoti.
> Ucchedadi.t.thisahagato hi raago "vibhavata.nhaa"ti vuccati. Esa nayo
> saddata.nhaadiisupi. >> Sp-p.t 3.176, Vism 2 para 644 (CSCD) is similar.
>
> This includes the explanation of craving accompanied by the eternity view.
>
> On the other hand we find in the commentaries to the Vibhanga and the
> Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta the following:
>
> << Kaamata.nhaati kaame ta.nhaa kaamata.nhaa; pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraagasseta.m
> adhivacana.m. Bhave ta.nhaa bhavata.nhaa; bhavapatthanaavasena uppannassa
> sassatadi.t.thisahagatassa ruupaaruupabhavaraagassa ca jhaananikantiyaa
> ceta.m adhivacana.m. Vibhave ta.nhaa vibhavata.nhaa;
> ucchedadi.t.thisahagatassa raagasseta.m adhivacana.m. >> Vbh-a 111
>
> "bhave ta.nhaa" is craving with respect to existence. Bhave is in the
> locative sing. and I'm not sure how it relates to ta.nhaa so here 'with
> respect to' is just a guess. This resolution of the compound might be where
> the "craving for existence" comes from. You will also note that in this
> explanation the craving is also accompanied by the eternity-view but
> ruuparaaga and aruuparaaga as the sixth and seventh fetters (sa.myojana-s)
> are without the eternity view (eradicated at the stream-entry level). I
> suspect that the desire for jhaanic states is also accompanied by the
> eternity view.