Vin. Mv. 1:6 (...continued)

Dear Jim and Nina,
Wonderful help! Thanks.

Comments interspersed (new comments indicated by --> Dan:

D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

D: 1. What's panida.m?

J: pana ida.m. 'pana' is a particle while 'ida.m' is the nom. sing.
neuter
form of the pronoun 'ima' (stem form). The final 'a' of 'pana' has
been
elided before a following vowel. The combination could also be
written as:
pan' ida.m. The 'ida.m' (this) goes with 'ariyasacca.m' (noble truth).

N: pana ida.m, watch those sandhis. Pana can be translated as and
now, on
the contrary (adversative).

--> Dan: So, a word ending in short 'a' followed by a word beginning
in 'i' is contracted by squeezing the words together and dropping the
i? Do I have that rule right?

The ambience of "and now" is quite different from that of "on the
contrary," but it is interesting that both are glosses for "pana". It
seems to give a special emphasis to what follows: "'And now', listen
to this. Be careful, though. Although it may only appear to be subtly
different from what I said before in the previous sentence, it is
really quite different ('on the contrary')." Does that make sense? I
really need to get this right...

D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii"...

J: The translation that I made using "by developing" was not one I
agreed
with. I was only rewording ~Nm's in order to make it more
intelligible. I
think his "maintaining" might have something to do with "anurakkhanaa"
as found in the last of the 4 right efforts (sammappadhaana-
s). "pa.tipadaa"
(the way) would be the accusative object of "developing" just like
"maintaining" but "pa.tipadaa" happens to be in the nom. sing. fem.
"dukkhanirodhagaaminii" translates into "leading to (gaaminii) the
cessation
(nirodha) of suffering (dukkha).

--> Dan: Hmmmm... I can see that. I'm a little skeptical of mixing
the teachings in translations, though, because the teaching often
seems to take similar ideas and expresses them in different ways or
emphasizes different aspects, apparently tailored to meet the needs
of the listener at that time. For example, paticca samuppada, the
five aggregates, and the elements and bases in a lot of ways seem to
be just different formulations for the same general phenomena. I find
that mixing the metaphors is dangerous. Better to understand each as
it is? I think so. The words mean somewhat different things in the
different contexts.

"bhaavetabbanti" is made up of two words: bhaavetabba.m + iti and
according
to the rules of sandhi (euphonic combination), .m + iti becomes nti.

--> Dan (interrupting): O.K. This is a difficulty I don't have much
experience with. "-anti" sure looks like 1st conjugation, 3rd person
pl. indicative, but in this case it isn't. For me to unravel
something like this at this stage, I notice that there is a quote,
look for a '-ti' or an '-iti' (possibly sandhi-ized) to mark the end.

J:'ti' marks the end of the quote: "ida.m dukkhanirodhagaaminii
pa.tipadaa
ariyasacca.m bhaavetabba.m". It is also possible that the quote could
begin
at the very beginning: "ta.m kho panida.m... bhaavetabba.m". "ta.m"
is a
word that I'm not sure about (is it a pronoun or a particle?). The
stem form
of "bhaavetabba.m" is "bhaavetabba" which you will likely find under
the
entry word "bhavati" in PED. The nom. sing. neut. inflectional
termination
/a.m/ is in agreement with "ariyasacca.m" (the subject). I believe
Warder
calls words ending in -tabba "future passive participles" but I think
such
words would be better called "potential passive participles". Most
Pali (and
Sanskrit) words can be resolved into their elementary components
(morphemes)
and there are grammatical rules describing the formation of words.
"bhaavetabba" is a causative form which is made up of the verbal
root /bhuu/
(be, become), the causative affix /e/ and the kicca
affix /tabba/. "bhuu" is
changed to "bhaav" before /e/. In a traditional native grammar such
as the
Saddaniiti one can find further details on the various uses and
meanings of
/tabba/. In the Pa.tis commentary "bhaavetabba" is glossed as
"va.d.dhetabba" which helps a lot.

N: bhaavati: to become, bhaaveti: causative, make become or develop.
the
postfix abba denotes: should be or must be done.

--> Dan: Very nice! But I can see that Pali is a challenging
language... A lot of similar-looking endings with different meanings
and a vowel fluidity that morphs words into strange looking beasts.

D: 3. "pa.tipadaa" -- why the long "a" at the end? PTS dictionary (on-
line) only gives "pa.tipada". Surely it's not nominative plural.

J: The online PED isn't showing the proper diacritics if all you saw
was
"pa.tipada". The hardcopy would show "pa.tipadaa" (fem.).

--> Dan: The hard copy is in the mail. Should be here shortly.

D: 4. "ariyasacca.m" must be accusative, object of bhaavetabbbanti.

J: It wouldn't have the accusative case ending (although the nom. and
acc.
endings happen to look the same). Here, the object or patient is
expressed
in the nominative case just as the agent would be expresed in the
instrumental case.

--> Dan (interrupting again): O.K. I haven't learned instrumental yet
(and there's not one here, right?), but with bhaavetabbba.m as
passive voice I can see the nominative.

D: 2. Also, "dukkhanirodhagaaminii" must be something like "way to
> eradicate suffering."
N: nirodha: cessation. gaaminii: from gacchati, and the ii is
interesting:
what is habitually or usually the case.

--> Dan: This might be where ~Nm got the "maintaining in being" idea.
That makes more sense to me than the mixing of metaphors.

D: Regarding the 4th noble truth: "ta.m kho panida.m
> dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m bhaavetabbanti me"
> [Vin. Mv. 1:6, S 56:11, and Ps XVI.]

N: And further, this noble truth indeed, namely, this way leading to
the
cessation of suffering should thus be developed by me.

ta.m may refer to ariyasacca.m, and panida.m (pana ida.m) may refer to
pa.tipadaa, is a description of what this truth is, but I am guessing
only.
Kho is another nice small particle (like in Greek many of those, but I
forgot, 55 years ago), meaning, indeed, it is for stress. The ti at
end of
bhaavetabban: the m becomes an n before ti (this happens all the
time, you
get used to it). Sometimes ti is from iti: thus, or referring to
something
that has been mentioned before. Or it is ti used as a quote. Here it
may be
the first case, a guess. See what Jim will say.
pa.ti padaa is interesting, we discussed with Jim pa.ti, towards.
pa.tipadaa: a means to reach the goal.
I am bound to have made mistakes, enjoyed it though,

--> Dan: Great explanations, both of you. This help really makes
language study fun (something I've never been especially fond of,
despite learning several languages, mostly half-heartedly).


Dan