Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.

Dear Rob,

Don't worry about it, you can do the same next time, we can all learn
from Jim,

Amara

--- In palistudy@..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...>
wrote:
> excellent jim. This is the way translators should write -
> showing us the different ways and possibilities in footnotes and
> endnotes.
> robert
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
> > Dear Nina,
> >
> > >> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> > >
> > >>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.
> > >
> > >> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> > sa.mvattanti.
> > >Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> > >>katame cattaaro?
> > >Which four?
> > >
> > >sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> > >> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> > >
> > >association with the noble person, hearing of the true
> > dhamma, wise
> > >attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.
> > >
> > >ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> > >> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> > >
> > >These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> >
> > Your translation is okay but there are three words you left
> > untranslated:
> > ime (in cattaaro'me), -dhamma- (in anudhamma), and kho. 'noble
> > person' could
> > be in the plural. There is no commentary on this sutta so one
> > has to look
> > elsewhere. I haven't found anything yet in the AN com.
> > explaining each of
> > the 4 dhammas together but found a clear explanation in the
> > commentary to
> > the Patisambhidamagga which I think serves our purpose. The
> > following
> > explains two of these dhammas:
> >
> > sappurisasa.mseve ti sobhanaana.m purisaaana.m sammaa sevane.
> >
> > This shows the plural ie. noble persons. In the Skt. dict.
> > virtuous is given
> > as one of the meanings of 'sobha.na'. 'sammaa' is the meaning
> > of the 'sa.m'
> > prefixing 'seva' -- so 'right association with' is a
> > possibility.
> >
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa ti ettha navalokuttaradhamme
> > anugato
> > dhammo dhammaanudhammo. siilasamaadhipa~n~naasa"nkhaatassa
> > dhammaanudhammassa pa.tipatti pa.tipajjana.m
> > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> >
> > I won't translate all of this but the general meaning is: the
> > practice of
> > dhamma <called siila, samaadhi, & pa~n~naa> relating?? to the
> > <nine
> > supramundane> dhammas. In the CPD the meanings of 'anugata'
> > are given as:
> > "following, come into (acc,), conformable to, relating to".
> > 'anugato' is the
> > meaning given for the prefix 'anu' before 'dhamma'. In an AN
> > com. I also
> > came across anuruupa and anuloma as meanings for the anu
> > before dhamma.
> >
> > >Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It
> > could be factors,
> > >but that word is too weak.
> >
> > 'dhamma' is a word with many meanings. A while ago I had
> > listed together all
> > the different meanings I could find and came up with 23 of
> > them! Going over
> > them I think 'hetu or paccaya' (cause, condition) fits the
> > best: 'these four
> > conditions (or conditioning things) lead to the
> > growth/increase of wisdom'.
> > For 'sa.mvattanti' I'm not all that sure if 'lead to' is the
> > right meaning
> > although it's commonly translated that way. I tried looking
> > for a few
> > commentarial glosses on this verb and so far I have found only
> > 'bhavati' &
> > 'vattati, pavattati'. I seem to see only this verb used with a
> > dative of
> > purpose suffix (often aaya) and the feminine 'iyaa' of
> > vuddhiyaa is most
> > likely used in the same way.
> >
> > >sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
> > >meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my
> > dictionary.
> > >Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many
> > interpretations: sant can
> > >become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the
> > good dhamma. In
> > >Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those
> > who have
> > >attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult
> > word, I am
> > >interested in what you think.In the end it is not too
> > different: good,
> > >noble, peaceful.
> >
> > I started to investigate the meanings of 'sap-' and 'sad-'. In
> > the same
> > location of the Pa.tis com. above I found for saddhamma:
> > sata.m dhammo,
> > sobhano vaa dhammo (p. 542). Until you mentioned 'peaceful' I
> > had never
> > come across this interpretation before. 'santa' has several
> > homonyms and
> > 'sata.m' can be a plural gen. I haven't found a clear present
> > participle
> > entered for the root 'sam' (to be quiet) so I'm not sure if
> > 'sata.m' is the
> > right form for its pl. gen. but it does seem a plausible one
> > and 'sata.m
> > dhammo' could very well have the meaning of  'the dhamma of
> > the peaceful
> > ones'. 'good' is likely a translation of 'sobhana' although I
> > haven't yet
> > found the connection to 'santa' other than in dictionaries.
> >
> > >Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai
> > translation of this:
> > >pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and
> > patti: to reach (in
> > >Thai: thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.
> >
> > I think you might be reading 'patti' as the one derived from
> > the root 'aap'
> > (reach): pa + aap + ti > patti. The 'patti' of pa.tipatti is
> > derived from
> > the root 'pad' (go): pad + ti > patti. I'm keeping on the
> > lookout for the
> > Pali meaning of 'pa.ti' used with 'patti' and also how
> > pa.tipatti and
> > pa.tipadaa differ in meaning.
> >
> > >Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be
> > wrong, no good
> > >at plurals.
> >
> > dhamme could be for the loc. sing. or acc. pl. The nom. pl. is
> > dhammaa.
> > However, in the case of pronouns like ima (mf sing. aya.m) and
> > katama the
> > nom. and acc. pl. in the masc. is ime and katame with the -e
> > ending.
> >
> > This sutta might look simple on the surface yet on closer
> > inspection it can
> > easily turn into something quite deep, complex, and that which
> > can involve a
> > great deal of study. The four dhammas are similar to those of
> > the 4 factors
> > of stream-entry (sotaapattiyangaani). In the Pa.tis com. p.641
> > it shows how
> > the four dhammas relate to each other. One thing that sure
> > stands out is
> > just how limited translations are which may only be able at
> > best to convey
> > just one aspect of an important Pali word having many
> > meanings.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Jim
> >
> >
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>
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