Re: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m, translation.

excellent jim. This is the way translators should write -
showing us the different ways and possibilities in footnotes and
endnotes.
robert
--- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
> Dear Nina,
>
> >> pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m.
> >
> >>  Sutta about the Growth of pa~n~naa.
> >
> >> cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa
> sa.mvattanti.
> >Four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
> >>katame cattaaro?
> >Which four?
> >
> >sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro,
> >> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
> >
> >association with the noble person, hearing of the true
> dhamma, wise
> >attention and practice in accordance with the dhamma.
> >
> >ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa
> >> pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)
> >
> >These four dhammas, bhikkhus, lead to the growth of wisdom.
>
> Your translation is okay but there are three words you left
> untranslated:
> ime (in cattaaro'me), -dhamma- (in anudhamma), and kho. 'noble
> person' could
> be in the plural. There is no commentary on this sutta so one
> has to look
> elsewhere. I haven't found anything yet in the AN com.
> explaining each of
> the 4 dhammas together but found a clear explanation in the
> commentary to
> the Patisambhidamagga which I think serves our purpose. The
> following
> explains two of these dhammas:
>
> sappurisasa.mseve ti sobhanaana.m purisaaana.m sammaa sevane.
>
> This shows the plural ie. noble persons. In the Skt. dict.
> virtuous is given
> as one of the meanings of 'sobha.na'. 'sammaa' is the meaning
> of the 'sa.m'
> prefixing 'seva' -- so 'right association with' is a
> possibility.
>
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipattiyaa ti ettha navalokuttaradhamme
> anugato
> dhammo dhammaanudhammo. siilasamaadhipa~n~naasa"nkhaatassa
> dhammaanudhammassa pa.tipatti pa.tipajjana.m
> dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti.
>
> I won't translate all of this but the general meaning is: the
> practice of
> dhamma <called siila, samaadhi, & pa~n~naa> relating?? to the
> <nine
> supramundane> dhammas. In the CPD the meanings of 'anugata'
> are given as:
> "following, come into (acc,), conformable to, relating to".
> 'anugato' is the
> meaning given for the prefix 'anu' before 'dhamma'. In an AN
> com. I also
> came across anuruupa and anuloma as meanings for the anu
> before dhamma.
>
> >Thank you very much, Jim. I did not translate dhammas. It
> could be factors,
> >but that word is too weak.
>
> 'dhamma' is a word with many meanings. A while ago I had
> listed together all
> the different meanings I could find and came up with 23 of
> them! Going over
> them I think 'hetu or paccaya' (cause, condition) fits the
> best: 'these four
> conditions (or conditioning things) lead to the
> growth/increase of wisdom'.
> For 'sa.mvattanti' I'm not all that sure if 'lead to' is the
> right meaning
> although it's commonly translated that way. I tried looking
> for a few
> commentarial glosses on this verb and so far I have found only
> 'bhavati' &
> 'vattati, pavattati'. I seem to see only this verb used with a
> dative of
> purpose suffix (often aaya) and the feminine 'iyaa' of
> vuddhiyaa is most
> likely used in the same way.
>
> >sappuriso: sap in this word must have a special
> >meaning. Difficult word to translate, I followed my
> dictionary.
> >Saddhamma:true dhamma: there is more to it. Many
> interpretations: sant can
> >become sat (Warder): existing, what exists,true.Also: the
> good dhamma. In
> >Thailand it is interpreted as dhamma of the peaceful, those
> who have
> >attained enlightenment. Dhamma of the noble ones. A difficult
> word, I am
> >interested in what you think.In the end it is not too
> different: good,
> >noble, peaceful.
>
> I started to investigate the meanings of 'sap-' and 'sad-'. In
> the same
> location of the Pa.tis com. above I found for saddhamma:
> sata.m dhammo,
> sobhano vaa dhammo (p. 542). Until you mentioned 'peaceful' I
> had never
> come across this interpretation before. 'santa' has several
> homonyms and
> 'sata.m' can be a plural gen. I haven't found a clear present
> participle
> entered for the root 'sam' (to be quiet) so I'm not sure if
> 'sata.m' is the
> right form for its pl. gen. but it does seem a plausible one
> and 'sata.m
> dhammo' could very well have the meaning of  'the dhamma of
> the peaceful
> ones'. 'good' is likely a translation of 'sobhana' although I
> haven't yet
> found the connection to 'santa' other than in dictionaries.
>
> >Pa.tipatti: Jon and I discussed in Cambodia the Thai
> translation of this:
> >pa.ti: in particular or one by one (in Thai: chepo) and
> patti: to reach (in
> >Thai: thyng). Most interesting, what is Kom thinking?.
>
> I think you might be reading 'patti' as the one derived from
> the root 'aap'
> (reach): pa + aap + ti > patti. The 'patti' of pa.tipatti is
> derived from
> the root 'pad' (go): pad + ti > patti. I'm keeping on the
> lookout for the
> Pali meaning of 'pa.ti' used with 'patti' and also how
> pa.tipatti and
> pa.tipadaa differ in meaning.
>
> >Grammar: I would think dhamme, why is pl dhammaa? I must be
> wrong, no good
> >at plurals.
>
> dhamme could be for the loc. sing. or acc. pl. The nom. pl. is
> dhammaa.
> However, in the case of pronouns like ima (mf sing. aya.m) and
> katama the
> nom. and acc. pl. in the masc. is ime and katame with the -e
> ending.
>
> This sutta might look simple on the surface yet on closer
> inspection it can
> easily turn into something quite deep, complex, and that which
> can involve a
> great deal of study. The four dhammas are similar to those of
> the 4 factors
> of stream-entry (sotaapattiyangaani). In the Pa.tis com. p.641
> it shows how
> the four dhammas relate to each other. One thing that sure
> stands out is
> just how limited translations are which may only be able at
> best to convey
> just one aspect of an important Pali word having many
> meanings.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
>
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