Re: ubhato again

op 04-06-2001 02:59 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:

J:
'ubhato' (in both ways) is listed as an adverb in PED (PTS's Pali-English
dictionary). Warder has very little to say about the -to suffix but there's
more to it if one studies it in the native grammars (Saddaniiti, etc.). It's
usage not only includes the ablative, but also the locative, instrumental
and genitive. In Sanskrit there is distinguished two adverbial '-to'
suffixes (tasi & tasil = ta.h eg. ubhayata.h).

N:I found in Warder Ch 26: ubhato: on both sides, but I agree there is more
to it.

J:I have since looked at what other commentaries say about the term. One of
the problems is knowing what the two parts refer to. I think what B.Bodhi
states agrees with  DA.T ii 154-5:

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.

dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance of
cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
body with the path. (my rough translation)

N: this is clear, but just a gram.question: vimuccitabba : he ought to or
should be freed, correct? You mentioned that you would say something about
this -abba form, that would be interesting. But of course, there is no
hurry. 

J: An interesting comment on 'vimutto':

vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.

Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!

N: vimucca, passive form. I met it in DII, 9 (p. 148): about the royal
splendour of the king who is (being?) honoured (mahati): Mahaccaati pi
Paa.li, mahatiyaati attho.<< He was honoured>, is the meaning> .Is this
example correct?

J:I don't want to get into the Puggalapa~n~natti commentaries as they'll
just
make an already complicated subject all the more complicated but I quote the
following from the PP. muula.tikaa which briefly sets out the three
interpretations for comparison:

pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.

N: dve vare: is this accusative: as to the two occasions? Now I find it
difficult to know the subtle differences between what the three theras
state, but as you say, it may become too complicated. I shall just look at
the grammar, the: dve vare.

Thank you very much for all the remarks and corrections. I just only started
to look at the netti texts. The sutta reference I cannot find,
baahitikasutta, where is it?
What would you like us to do, it is quite long, but we could try little by
little, or do you have something else in mind? Should I not rather start
with an easier text, but of course, nothing is easy. It would not hurt to
start this one, but not too much at a time. I really follow your advice to
us. 
I printed it out and then took it off the computer, because I did not know
beforehand that I might do something with it. If you advise us to translate
parts (or each of us one part?) I would need it on the computer again. In
that case, could you please send it to me again if it is not too time
consuming? Thank you very much. But it may be better to start with an easier
text. What do you think? Meanwhile I keep on reading DII Co, but sometimes I
get stuck with some words. Now it is all about the retenue of the king,
tesa.m pariyante... (Not translated by Ven. Bodhi).
Many thanks again, Nina.