Dear Nina,
>> JA: For 'dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa' I'm inclined to translate this as
>> '<are> freed from two parts'. The past participles (eg. vimutta)
>> are mostly in the past tense but your 'being freed' is in the present
>> tense.
>
>You are quite right, I should pay more attention to the plural form and the
>whole grammar. While reading texts now Iam inspired to look up things more
>often in Warder. I think too that instead of being freed just <are> freed
>may be better, since it happened at the attainment of arahatship.
I'm not sure if this applies in the case of 'vimutta' but for past
participle agent-nouns such as 'buddha' there is a rule in the Saddaniiti
(sutta 1144) that allows for the tense to include present and future time
(sabbakaala). 'being freed' in Pali would be 'vimuccanta' (see further
below)
>N: the suffix < to> may sugges t< from both>,abl. , thus here may be not an
>adverb? I wonder whether suffix <to> also refers to <bhaaga>? What is BHSD?
'ubhato' (in both ways) is listed as an adverb in PED (PTS's Pali-English
dictionary). Warder has very little to say about the -to suffix but there's
more to it if one studies it in the native grammars (Saddaniiti, etc.). It's
usage not only includes the ablative, but also the locative, instrumental
and genitive. In Sanskrit there is distinguished two adverbial '-to'
suffixes (tasi & tasil = ta.h eg. ubhayata.h).
BHSD refers to the Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary (first published in
1953). It includes reference to the Pali equivalents as it does in the
'ubhatobhaagavimukta' entry and even quotes from the Pali commentary. It
also has: "The AbhidhK. vi.276 has a different interpretation acc. to La
V-P., 'delivered from the obstacle of the passions (impurities,
kle"saavara.na), and from the obstacle to (the 8) vimok.sa (which is stated
to be akarma.nyataa, l'impuissance corporelle et mentale). This seems to be
a later reinterpretation; the Pali comms. make it simpler, referring to the
physical and mental constituents. Which was meant in our texts is not clear
from the contexts."
>> JA: the subcommentary reads the fifth case plural for -bhaagehi
>> and -bhaagato. This is a good example of how some Pali phrases taken
>> together do not translate well into English. A literal translation would
>> be: 'from both parts freed: from both parts, from both parts freed' which
>> doesn't make much sense until one reads it in Pali.
I would now have to admit that a third case plural is possible for -bhagehi.
>N: I did not know what to choose: in or by both parts.
>I read in Ven. (p. 66) : < The commentaries explain the name <<liberated in
>both ways>> as meaning <<through the immaterial attainment he is liberated
>from the material body and through the path (arahatship) he is liberated
>from the mental body" (MA.ii, 131)>
The Pali passage that he translated is very much the same as the one you
translated at SA i 278. The MA ii 131 ref. is incorrect if the PTS ed. is
meant. I found the passage at MA iii 188 (for Kitagirisutta).
>He then quotes the sutta (M i, 477). I think that liberated from the
>naamakaaya means: liberated from all defilements, and thus from rebirth.
>Naamakaaya may refer to citta and cetasikas, but in some texts it refers
>to the cetasikas. In the <Netti> it refers to citta and cetasikas,as I read
>in some passage.
Naamakaaya is mentioned in the Mahanidaanasutta and its tiika leaves little
doubt that it refers to the four immaterial khandhas.
>It would be interesting if Amara or Kom could ask Acharn Somporn about
>this, or Khun Santi.A difficult subject.
>Just now I found a clue in the >Netti>(Enlg p. 65, Pali p. 41): <Herein,
>the naamakaaya is the footing for ignorance, the ruupakaaya is the footing
>for craving. Why is that? In the kinds of existence having ruupa there is
>cleaving to them, and in the formless kinds of existence there is confusion
>(about them).>
Thanks for the Netti clue.
>Ve, Bodhi ((Mahaanidaana sutta, p.41) states:< The commentaries explain the
>word ubhatobhaagavimutta as meaning both liberated through two portions and
>liberated from two portions. >
I have since looked at what other commentaries say about the term. One of
the problems is knowing what the two parts refer to. I think what B.Bodhi
states agrees with DA.T ii 154-5:
dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ti aruupajjhaanena vikkhambhanavimokkhena,
maggena samucchedavimokkhenaa ti dviihi vimuccanabhaagehi,
aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato, maggena naamakaayato ti dviihi
vimuccitabbabhaagehi ca vimutto.
dviihi bhaagehi vimutto: freed by the two parts of freedom thus: by the
deliverance of suppression with the immaterial jhaana, by the deliverance of
cutting off with the path; and (freed) from the two parts to be freed thus:
from the material body with the attainment of the formless, from the mental
body with the path. (my rough translation)
An interesting comment on 'vimutto':
vimutto ti kilesehi vimutto vimuccanto ca; kilesaana.m
vikkhambhanasamucchedehi kayadvayato vimutto ti ayamettha attho.
Notice 'vimuccanto' -- your 'being freed'!
I don't want to get into the Puggalapa~n~natti commentaries as they'll just
make an already complicated subject all the more complicated but I quote the
following from the PP. muula.tikaa which briefly sets out the three
interpretations for comparison:
pa.thamattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi vimutto ubhatobhaagavimutto,
dutiyattheravaade ubhato bhaagato vimutto ti ubhatobhaagavimutto ti,
tatiyattheravaade dviihi bhaagehi dve vaare vimutto ti ayam etesa.m viseso.
>Do you have to type out all these texts or do you copy them even with the
>Email accents? I ask this with a view on future texts, I do not want to
>take up too much of your time. Thank you very much again, Nina.
I typed out the Samyutta atthakatha and tika passages with all the
diacritical marks. Since they were short it doesn't take long to type out.
For longer passages I would use copy and paste then convert to the email
format like I did with the Netti commentarial passages I recently posted.
Best wishes,
Jim
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