Fw: translation of commentary

-----Original Message-----
From: Nina van Gorkom <nilo@...>
To: Jim Anderson <jima_47@...>
Date: Friday, May 25, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: translation of commentary


op 24-05-2001 00:50 schreef Jim Anderson op jima_47@...:

> Dear Nina,
>
>> Dear Jim, in the Kindred Sayings I, VIII, Vangiisa Suttas, § 7,
Invitation,
>> Pavarana ssutta, there is a point Khun Sujin pointed out: among 500
monks,
>> 60 have the threefold knowledge, 60have the six abhi~n~nas, 60 are
>> ubhatobhaaga vimutta, and the others (thus, 320!) by insight.
>> I have a Thai commentary only of the first part of S. I, not of this
part.
>
> The following excerpts are taken from the Samyuttanikaya commentary and
> subcommentary on the passage you're interested in. That's all there is --
> explanations of the words 'ubhatobhaagavimutta' and 'pa~n~naavimutta'.
>
> ubhato-bhaaga-vimuttaa ti dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa.
> aruupaavacara-samaapattiyaa ruupa-kaayato vimuttaa, agga-maggena
> naama-kaayato ti. pa~n~naa-vimuttaa ti pa~n~naaya vimuttaa
> tevijjaadibhaava.m appattaa khi.naasavaa. -- PTS SA i 278 (a.t.thakathaa)
>
> [subcommentary:]
> ubhatobhaagavimuttaati ubhayabhaagehi ubhayabhaagato vimuttaati.ayamettha
> atthoti dasseti "dviihi bhaagehi vimuttaa, aruupaa ...pe...
naamakaayato"ti
> iminaa. tevijjaadibhaavanti
tevijjacha.labhi~n~nacatuppa.tisambhidabhaava.m.
> pa~n~naavimuttaa hi ta.m tividham appattaa kevala.m pa~n~naaya eva
> vimuttaa. -- Myanmar SA.T 1.291 (.tiikaa)
>
You handed me a nice present, the commentary texts, thank you.
Here goes my translation, and corrections are appreciated, I am here to
learn: first the co:
freed in both ways: being freed in the two parts (bhaago). he is freed from
the material body by the attainment of aaruupaavacara (aruupajhaana), and
freed from the mental body by the highest path (aggamagga).
freed by pa~n~naa: he is freed by pa~n~naa: he has destroyed the aasavaas
without having attained the threefold knowledge etc.
Now the subco:
freed in both ways: he is freed in both parts, by both parts. This here
(ayamettha) is the meaning. He shows by this (iminaa) : < freed by two ways,
aruupa...etc. ...he is freed from the mental body >. The threefold knowledge
and others (aadi) are existing, the threefold knowledge, the six abhi~n~naa,
the four discriminations (pa.tisambhidas).
pa~n~naavimuttaa: he is thus freed entirely by pa~n`naa, without having
attained the threefold knowledge.

kevala.m, wholly, entirely, seems to put a lot of stress on pa~n~naa.

> I find the groupings in the sutta a little odd. Couldn't the tevijja and
> cha.labhi~n~na monks also be included in the ubhatobhaagavimutta category?

In the freed both ways catagory are included those with the eight
attainments: ruupajhaanas and aruupajhaanas, or just by aruupajhaana. This
has been explained in Wheel351-353, The Jhaanas, by Ve. Henepola (he gives
many texts) and also Ve. Bodhi, The Great Discourse on Causation, in the
Intro. There are variations, some texts, the Puggalap~n~natti give the
ruupajhaana and aruupajhaanas, whereas other texts mention just the
aruupajhaanaa for this distinction in freedom. I think that it depends on
the headings, the different angles.
Now, the threefold knowledge, and then the six abhi~n~naas are additional
distinctions, also the four discrimination mentioned in the subcommentary.
My personal opion, I would like Robert's comment, is that this is the reason
for mentioning them separately in the commentary. Also: three times 60 may
be a reason for this classification.
Is there more in the commentary, I would like to know more about the
circumstances, why such a great percentage of arahats is just
pa~n~naavimuttaa.
>
>>
> Most of the members on psg are Pali beginners. I don't yet know how well
you
> can read Pali but that should come clearer later.

My father would savour this remark! I feel like being in a class having to
pass a test and I like it.

When you say you are
> reading the Co. on DN 2 is it the Thai or Pali Co. that you are reading or
> both?

I am reading just the Pali co. on DN 2. I am selftaught, only used Warder. I
like this book because he lets you read very soon, but it is not handy for
looking up grammatical points. I do not have the grammar at my fingertips,
numbers are  weak points, and also Upama, comparisons, which are also in
Thai most difficult. I have many commentaries in Thai also, because they
edit suttas together with co, and each time I bring some from Thailand. But
I find the Thai commentaries difficult language. Khun Sujin quotes a lot
from them that is the reason I have them. I also have some suttas and co. in
Pali, all the D co, sent to me by (a blessed) mistake by the P.T.S. So I
have to read them now.


Most recently I've been taking a close look at
> an English translation of the first sutta (aphorism) of the
Padaruupasiddhi
> (a grammatical text) and comparing it to the original Pali.
> Here's part of it:
> <<1. attho akkharasa~n~naato.
>
> “A meaning is properly known through the letters.”>>
> (transl. Suan Lu Zaw)
>
> There is also some interesting commentary with it. I'm planning to post
more
> to psg.
Looking forward to your paper, Nina.
P.S. this address is different from the psg group address, I mean all this
for the group. What is correct?
>
>
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