Dear James,

Thanks for your suggestion. It is supported by a gloss that Jim Andersen sent me from the Mukhamattadīpanī-nir:

saṃghanti ariyasamūhaṃ || Mmd-nir, p. 5,24-5.

which I think confirms your translation. I was wondering whether samūhaṃ in this context could be taken as also modifying dhammaṃ and having the sense of "together with", i. e. the "sum" or "totality" (other meanings for samūha in MW) of the dhamma and the "totality" of the saṅgha. Notice there is no "and" in the text, which one would have expected. Sort of like the Tibetan dang bcas pa, "together with". But your explanation is simpler.

Thanks for your help,

Mettā,

Bryan


On , Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
Dear James,

Thanks for your suggestion. It is supported by a gloss that Jim Andersen sent me from the Mukhamattadīpanī-nir:

saṃghanti ariyasamūhaṃ || Mmd-nir, p. 5,24-5.

which I think confirms your translation. I was wondering whether samūhaṃ in this context could be taken as also modifying dhammaṃ and having the sense of "together with", i. e. the "sum" or "totality" (other meanings for samūha in MW) of the dhamma and the "totality" of the saṅgha. Notice there is no "and" in the text, which one would have expected. Sort of like the Tibetan dang bcas pa, "together with". But your explanation is simpler.

Thanks for your help,

Mettā,

Bryan




On Tuesday, January 28, 2014 3:06:05 AM, James Whelan <jamespwhelan67@...> wrote:
Dear Bryan,
 
I did try to send the email below to Pali@yahoogroups.com but somehow it didn't go through. I await help from Yong Peng on this, but in the meantime I attach what I tried to send.  I would be interested to know your views.
 
Metta
 
James Whelan
 
From: James Whelan [mailto:jamespwhelan67@...]
Sent: 27 January 2014 20:00
To: 'Pali@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [Pali] Question on Thī-a
 
Dear Bryan,
 
Very tentatively, I wonder whether samūha is in explanatory apposition to saṃgha. The syntax of this part of the sentence would then be: '… saṃgham, [i.e.] samūham'. It is possible that the use of 'ti' after samūha supports this approach.
 
The translation '… brings together …' seems to give samūha the force of a verb, which I can't quite give it.
 
The author may be intending to say that by using the word saṃgha he does not mean saṃgha in the usual sense of 'the Saṃgha', but the more general sense of a samūha - an assemblage of beings,
 
As for the meaning of samūha, it does indeed mean assemblage etc., but in Sanskrit (see MW p. 1170 col. 3) it can also mean essence. I toyed with the idea of giving it the meaning of 'essence' here, but to make that work we would be straining the meaning of saṃgha.
 
The overall meaning seems to me that the author is explaining to us that this particular taking of refuge is not the normal Buddha/dhamma/ saṃgha refuge, but … [and now my attempted translation:] 'The explanation is [that the refuge being taken here is in] the dhamma of such excellent Buddhas, and of the saṃgha, that is to say the assemblage, of the eight noble persons'.
 
I shall be interested to know your views.  
 
Yours in the dhamma
 
James Whelan
 
From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Levman
Sent: 27 January 2014 18:25
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Pali] Question on Thī-a
 
 
Dear Friends,
 
Verse 249 of Thī reads
 
upehi buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ dhammaṃ saṅghañ ca tādinaṃ
samādiyāhi sīlāni tan te atthāya hehiti
 
which Norman, Elders' Verses 2, 27,  translates "...go to the venerable Buddha as a refuge, to the doctrine, and to the Order; undertake the rules of virtuous conduct; that will be to your advantage."
The commentary (Thī-a, 19725-29 ) reads,
 
tādinan ti diṭṭhādīsu tādibhāvappattaṃ. yathā vā purimakā sammāsambuddhā passitabbā, tathā passitabbato tādi. taṃ Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ upehī ti yojanā. dhammasaṅghesu pi es’ eva nayo. tādīnaṃ varabuddhānaṃ dhammaṃ aṭṭhannaṃ ariyapuggalānaṃ saṃghaṃ samūhan ti yojanā.
which I tentatively translate as
 
“tādinaṃ means who has reached such a state in regards what is known. Just as former fully enlightened Buddhas are to be regarded, because of being so regarded, is such a one [the current Buddha]. This is the explanation of ‘Go to that Buddha for refuge.’ This is also the meaning regarding [go to] the dhamma and saṅgha [for refuge]. The explanation brings together (samūha?) the saṅgha of the eight noble persons with the dhamma of such excellent Buddhas.”
 
I'm not sure about the word samūhan ("multitute, mass, aggregation" < saṃvah, "to bring together" ? I assume).  Does anyone know what it means in this context?
 
Thanks for your help,
 
Bryan
 
 
The commentary reads
 


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