Dear Bryan,
Thanks very much for the explanation. The strewn flowers gives me a
good example of how levels of intensification in the core verb don't
necessarily suggest levels of depth in practice.

Metta,
Frank

On 3/18/2012 6:22 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
>
> Dear Frank,
>
> To me the words can only be taken as a guide for different
> "levels" or intensities of knowing. Nina is quite right in that the
> main point of the discourse is understand things as they are, to go
> beyond the
> conceptual (and it is arguable whether there is such a thing as
> "levels" of knowing at all). But this kind of progression
> occurs many times in the writings (core verb, then different kinds of
> intensifying prefixes), usually I think as a form of intensification: e.g.
>
> Mahāparnibbāna
> sutta (2, 137):
> tāni tathāgatassa sarīraṃ okiranti ajjhokiranti abhippakiranti
> tathāgatassa pūjāya, describing how the flowers sprinkle
> over the Buddha‘s body. okiranti means to "strew" (ava > o-
> meaning "down"). abhipakiranti (abhipra-) has the additional sense of
> "completely" and ajjho (< Skt. adhyava-) also has the sense
> of "down from above." In other words they
> all seem to mean the same or something similar, the intensification
> coming as
> much from the waxing syllable principle (4-5-6) as from the words
> themselves.
>
> As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas) that
> language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from the
> mouth of
> Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the words
> can take
> us only so far,
>
> Metta, Bryan
>
> ________________________________
> From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:04:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in
> MN 119?
>
>
>
> Dear Bryan,
> Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED,
> *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware.
> and
> pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
> and finally
> sampajānāti means "to know perfectly"
>
> One of the monks I asked said Ajaan Geoff translates pajanati as
> discernment and sampajanakari as making yourself fully alert. The key is
> in the "kari," "making" in that it requires more effort, is more active,
> than pajanati, which would be more purely observational.
>
> All of these comments do help somewhat in differentiating how the
> "walking/sitting/lying/standing" is to practiced under the two
> categories, yet it still doesn't give me a clear picture of exactly how
> it should be practiced, other than the general idea that under
> "sampajānati kari" it's is a little "deeper".
>
> Metta,
> Frank
> On 3/13/2012 6:38 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
> >
> > Dear Frank,
> >
> > In all cases the root verb is pajānāti which means to know or
> > understand. With the prejfix sam- it expresses thoroughness, intensity
> > or completeness (cf sam in Monier Williams), so that sampajānāti means
> > "to know perfectly). I take it as simply a higher level of knowing
> > than simply pajānāti, if such is possible.
> > All three words sampajaññā, sampajāna and sampajānakāri are from this
> > verbal root (sam-pra-jñā in Sanskrit), however the last one has a
> > suffix -kārī added on which means "doing" or "making".
> >
> > Also for your interest, the word pahitatta, in both these sections has
> > an additional meaning of "abandoned self", as well as its usual
> > meaning of "directed or resolute self". The word can be derived from
> > either pra+dhā (Pāli padahati, to exert, or strive, past participle
> > pahita) or pa+hā/pa+hi (Pāli pajahati, past participle pahāta or
> > pahīna; or pahiṇati (Skt. pahiṇoti), past participle pahita and
> > equivalent in meaning to pa+hā) both meaning to abandon. because of
> > the change of -dh- > -h- their past participles (pahita) coincide. The
> > compound's dual meaning is especially clear in this context, as ye
> > gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti "any memories & resolves related
> > to the household life are abandoned" and the same verb form
> > (pahīyanti., which is the passive of pra + hā) is employed.
> >
> > Metta, Bryan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
> <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
> > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:03:02 PM
> > Subject: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Pāḷi friends,
> >
> > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
> > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
> > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
> > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
> >
> > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
> > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
> > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
> > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
> >
> > and
> >
> > pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
> > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
> >
> > So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
> > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
> > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
> > meditation and satipatthana practice.
> >
> > Metta,
> > Frank
> >
> > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
> >
> > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
> > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am
> > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
> > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus
> > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
> > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers
> > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
> > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
> >
> > (postures)
> >
> > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
> > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
> > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā panassa kāyo paṇihito
> > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino
> > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ
> > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
> > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
> >
> > (fully alert)
> >
> > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
> > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
> > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl...
> > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
> > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
> > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he
> > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
> > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
> > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
> > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
> >
> > (sampajāna)
> >
> > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī
> > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
> > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe sampajānakārī hoti, asite
> > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme sampajānakārī
> > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī
> > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā
> > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
> > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
> > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



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