Re: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")

Dear all,

I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.

One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.

The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
to her husband's place in marriage.

My suggestion therefore is:
"A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."

Best wishes,
Tomo

On 23 Sep 2010, at 02:35, Bryan Levman wrote:

> Dear Larry,
>
> I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious
> affairs) as "the
> ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
> The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their
> chants in
> secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views
> secretly not
> openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
>
> It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..."
> which I
> think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the
> sentiment).
>
>
> The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s.
> v. mātar),
> although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with
> women" (= methuna or
> sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Metta,
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
> Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna
> Sutta")
>
>
> I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly
> gnarly passage.
> It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
> I.282-83,
> occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta,
> the first
> paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
>
> Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
> Katamāni tīṇi?
> Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
> Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no
> vivaṭā.
> Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
> Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
>
> (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.
> 283 . The Word
> Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati"
> throughout, e.g.,
> as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/
> 15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
>
> In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
> this paragraph
> (p. 88) as:
>
> "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly.
> What three?
> Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
>
> For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation
> of
> "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that
> "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
> vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable
> and dreaded
> (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus
> Ven. Bodhi's
> inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious
> connotation of
> this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though,
> admittedly
> problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially
> given that
> "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something
> like:
>
> "Women proceed in secret ..."?
>
> Thanks so very much for any help!
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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