Hi Barry,

Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!

With gratitude,
Larry

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Larry,
>
> I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as "the
> ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
> The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants in
> secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
> openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
>
> It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
> think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
>
>
> The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v. mātar),
> although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (= methuna or
> sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Metta,
>
> Bryan
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
> Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paá¹­icchanna Sutta")
>
>
> I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage.
> It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
> occasionally entitled, "Paá¹­icchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first
> paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
>
> Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
> Katamāni tīṇi?
> Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
> Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
> Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
> Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
>
> (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word
> Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g.,
> as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
>
> In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph
> (p. 88) as:
>
> "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three?
> Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
>
> For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
> "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
> vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded
> (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's
> inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of
> this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
> problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that
> "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
>
> "Women proceed in secret ..."?
>
> Thanks so very much for any help!
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>