Dear Stephen,

Have you thought of 'infection' as a translation for 'aasava'? This would overcome the problem of 'influence' as being too mild. It loses the image of flowing, but sometimes you can't have everything and you don't appear to be too concerned about metaphor. 'Infection' has the advantage of being more precisely related to the sense of something not being right than 'influence', which can also mean a something beneficial. If you want a really free translation, you could play around with 'virus' (not for serious work, though). I mention playing around because this situation looks to me as one requiring thinking outside the box and then choosing the least bad translation.

Margaret Cone in the new PTS dictionary gives a literal meaning of 'inflowing' and gives 'influence' (of kaama etc.) as her first translation. The other two are 'affliction/pain' and 'discharge'. The meaning of distilled spirit is treated as a separate word. 'Inflowing/ influence' may appear to conflict with the translation of 'discharge', 'effluent' or 'canker' if we assume that Indians 25 centuries ago visualised discharges as modern Westerners do, as something flowing out. However, we know that they saw fire differently (see Thanissaro's Mind like Fire Unbound), and they may hypothetically have seen a discharge as an invasion. Otherwise, we know that meanings evolve and 'influence' also means 'discharge/ effluence' in the context of illness. An advantage of 'infection' is that it catches the meanings of both something invading and something coming out, as in British English we can loosely describe a discharge as an infection. Psychologically, if we are infected with kaamaasava etc., it can come out and infect others if they have low immunity.

I know how much effort it can be to find an adequate translation and I hope you find something not too unsatisfying. I hope you also enjoy the journey of teasing out complex meanings.

Metta,

Stefan

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "notwainwright" <stephen.wainwright@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, please accept my apologies if this message is posted more than once,
> I have not used yahoo groups in a while, and got a bit confused with the
> posting procedure. Sorry if you get this more than once.
>
>
> I got a bit interested in looking for a better translation of
> āsava, as I think "taints", "cankers" and
> "effluents" are all not very clear – they all require most
> people to reach for a dictionary, and rely on fairly obtuse metaphors,
> in my opinion.
>
>
>
> The PTS dictionary has these three entries:
>
>
>
> "1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or secretion of a tree or
> flower, 2. discharge from a sore, 3. in psychology, t.t. for certain
> specified ideas which intoxicate the mind (bemuddle it, befoozle it, so
> that it cannot rise to higher things). Freedom from the "Āsavas"
> constitutes Arahantship, & the fight for the extinction of these
> āsavas forms one of the main duties of man. "
>
>
>
> It seems that "cankers" then has come from the first definition,
> but I think that if we look at what the 4 āsava are [sense-desire
> (kaamaasava) (2) desire for continued existence (bhavaasava) (3) wrong
> views (di.t.thiaasava: and (4) ignorance (avijjaasava)] then I think it
> is very clear that we are talking about a psychological phenomena, and
> there is no need for a metaphoric usage such as "taints",
> "cankers" or "effluents".
>
> The word comes from the root "sru – "to flow" so PTS
> says literally it means "that which flows (out or on to) outflow &
> influx"
>
> For this reason Roderick S. Bucknell, Martin Stuart-Fox (in The Twilight
> Language: Explorations in Buddhist Meditation and Symbolism click here
> to see it
> <http://books.google.ch/books?id=hKd3oxn9URUC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=influe\
> nce+asava&source=bl&ots=Udf5GzVz1F&sig=-1SqXoWBOXRaE-tQUtQjJxx7Nhc&hl=en\
> &ei=pm1-S6fIHZaG_AaR9MSpDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0C\
> AsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=influence%20asava&f> ) suggests that
> "influence" is the correct literal translation of
> "asava" , and I have since found another suggestion of this use,
> in a classic transation of Vinaya texts: (Vinaya texts, Volume 1 By
> Thomas William Rhys Davids, Hermann Oldenberg
> <http://books.google.ch/books?id=q__JFBpeLGgC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=infl\
> uence+asava&source=bl&ots=GNvCMOMaM8&sig=_tzh9D4xM0uMGHkRmAH_H4kgnqU&hl=\
> en&ei=2mt-S_WgIJOG_AbOzwE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA\
> 4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=influence%20asava&f=> )
>
>
>
> Walshe
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023x.wlsh.html#n-2
> <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023x.wlsh.html#n-2\
> > ), suggests another alternative of "intoxicants" which might
> also capture the idea better.
>
> But I do believe "negative influence" (or "bad influence)
> captures much better the sense of āsava, the only problem being
> that it sounds quite mild in comparison to canker, effluent & intoxicant
> – but it is at least easily understood. It could perhaps be
> strengthened to "poisonous influence" or "intoxicating influence".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan" <fcckuan@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to all for the suggestions. I have no illusions that there can
> be one perfect word to translate aasava any more than one perfect word
> to transalte dukkha or any other major buddhist term. My question was
> mostly motivated by trying to understand why major translators use very
> different english terms. It seems absurd that I'm spending more energy
> and effort trying to keep track of all the english translations of
> aasava, compared to just learning the pali and using the pali word
> directly. In case the topic of aasava comes up on the list again in the
> future, I've summarized the discussion below, and also included the DPR
> entry for aasava:
> >
> >
> > Āsava [fr. ā + sru, would corresp. to a Sk. *āsrava,
> cp. Sk. āsrāva. The BSk. āśrava is a (wrong)
> sankritisation of the Pāli āsava, cp. Divy 391 &
> kṣīnāśrava] that which ;
> >
> > -- 115 --
> >
> > flows (out or on to) outflow & influx.
> > 1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or secretion of a tree or
> flower, O. C in Vin ;iv.110 (four kinds); B. on D iii.182 (five kinds
> DhsA 48; KhA 26; J iv.222; vi.9.
> > -- 2. discharge from a sore, A i.124, 127 = Pug 30. -
> > - 3. in psychology t.t. for certain specified ideas which
> intoxicate the mind (bemuddle it, befoozle it, so that it cannot rise to
> higher things). Freedom from the "Āsavas" constitutes Arahantship,
> & the fight for the extinction of these āsavas forms one of the
> main duties of man. On the difficulty of translating the term see ;Cpd.
> 227. See also discussion of term āsava (= āsavantī ti
> āsavā) at DhsA 48 (cp Expositor pp. 63 sq). See also Cpd. 227
> sq., & especially ;Dhs trsl. 291 sq.
> > -- The 4 āsavas are kām˚, bhav˚
> diṭṭh˚, avijj˚;, i. e. sensuality, rebirth (lust
> of life), speculation and ignorance. -- They are mentioned as such at D
> ii.81, 84, 91, 94, 98, 123, 126; A i.165 sq., 196 ii.211; iii.93, 414;
> iv.79; Ps i.94, 117; Dhs 1099, 1448 Nd2 134; Nett 31, 114 sq. -- The set
> of 3, which is probably older (kāma˚, bhava˚,
> avijjā˚) occurs at M i. 55 A i.165; iii.414; S iv.256; v.56,
> 189; It 49; Vbh 364 For other connections see Vin i.14
> (anupādāya āsavehi cittani vimucciŋsu), 17, 20, 182;
> ii.202; iii.5 (˚samudaya ˚nirodha etc.); D i.83, 167; iii.78,
> 108, 130, 220, 223 230, 240, 283; M i.7 sq., 23, 35, 76, 219, 279, 445
> (˚ṭhāniya); ii.22; iii.72, 277; S ii.187 sq. (˚ehi
> cittaŋ vimucci); iii.45 (id.); iv.107 (id.), 20; v.8, 28, 410; A
> i.85 sq. (vaḍḍhanti), 98, 165 (˚samudaya, ˚nirodha
> etc.) 187; ii.154 (˚ehi cittaŋ vimuttaŋ), 196; iii.21, 93
> (˚samudaya, ˚nirodha etc.), 245, 387 sq., 410, 414; iv.13, 146
> (˚pariyādāna end of the ā.), 161 (˚vighāta
> -- pariḷāha); v.70 237a; Th 2, 4, 99, 101 (pahāsi
> āsave sabbe); Sn 162 374, 535 (pl. āsavāni), 546, 749,
> 915, 1100; Dh 93 253, 292; Nd1 331 (pubb˚); Vbh 42, 64, 426; Pug 11
> 13, 27, 30 sq.; Miln 419; DhsA 48; ThA 94, 173; KhA 26; DA i 224; Sdhp
> 1; Pgdp 65 (piyāsava -- surā, meaning?).
> > Referring specially to the extinction (khaya) of the āsavas &
> to Arahantship following as a result are the foll. passages:
> > (1) ;āsavānaŋ khaya D i.156; S ii.29 214; iii 57,
> 96 sq, 152 sq; iv.105, 175; v.92, 203 220, 271, 284; A i.107 sq., 123
> sq., 232 sq., 273, 291 ii.6, 36, 44 sq., 149 sq., 214; iii 69, 114, 131,
> 202, 306 319 sq.; iv.83 sq., 119, 140 sq., 314 sq.; v.10 sq., 36, 69, 94
> sq, 105, 132, 174 sq., 343 sq.; It 49; Pug 27, 62; Vbh 334, 344; Vism 9;
> DA i.224; cp. ˚parikkhaya A v 343 sq. See also arahatta formula C.
> > -- (2) khīṇāsava (adj. one whose Āsavas are
> destroyed (see khīṇa) S i.13, 48 53, 146; ii 83, 239;
> iii.199, 128, 178; iv.217; A i 77 109, 241, 266; iv.120, 224, 370 sq.; v
> 40, 253 sq.; Ps ii 173; cp. parikkhīṇā āsavā A
> iv.418, 434, 451 sq. āsavakhīṇa Sn 370.
> > -- (3) anāsava (adj.) one who is free from the āsavas,
> an Arahant Vin ii.148 = 164; D iii.112; S i 130; ii.214, 222; iii.83;
> iv.128; A i.81, 107 sq., 123 sq., 273, 291; ii.6, 36, 87, 146; iii.19,
> 29, 114 166; iv.98, 140 sq., 314 sq., 400; A v.10 sq., 36, 242 340; Sn
> 1105, 1133; Dh 94, 126, 386; Th i.100; It 75; Nd2 44; Pv ii.615; Pug 27;
> Vbh 426; Dhs 1101, 1451 VvA 9. Cp. nirāsava ThA 148. -- Opp.
> sāsava S iii 47 v.232; A i.81 v.242; Dhs 990; Nett 10; Vism 13,
> 438.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lightly edited Summary of Discussion on various translations of
> "aasava" from pali forum on yahoo on Feb. 2010
> >
> > FK wrote:
> > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/aasava.htm
> > dictionary uses: cankers
> >
> > B.bodhi uses: taints
> > thanissaro: fermentations (also effluents?)
> >
> > I prefer either canker or taint myself, probably canker because the
> > meaning is very clear, that there is something undesirable festering
> > within us.
> > fermentations doesn't strike me the same way. I think of making beer,
> or
> > the fermented foods like tempeh, sauerkraut, yogurt. It doesn't have a
> > negative connotation, in fact the first impression is positive.
> >
> > effluents? I'm a fluent english speaker and I didn't know that word.
> Had
> > to look that one up. Effluent? I thought it had something to do with
> > language (as in fluency), or something to do with "affluence".
> >
> > LL wrote:
> > I personally like the more literal in+flux (ā + sava) and think
> of a moment where sensual desires or opinions (just to name two
> āsava) become so strong that they overpower us like the wave of a
> tsunami :-)
> > PT wrote:
> > Up to some years back, I had been using "canker" for aasava. But as
> you
> > mentioned, it is a poetic term. A poetic term is best used in verses
> or
> > contexually as the occasion dictates.
> >
> > I have chosen "influx" which is close to the etymology, of sense-data
> > glowing IN and flooding our sense-faculties, and so defiling our
> system
> > because we fail to see them as they are. "Effluent" I think comes from
> EX
> > (out) + fluent, meaning OUT flow. It is used sometimes in reference to
> > industrial waste and pollutant that flow OUT into the drainage system,
> etc.
> >
> > Some scholars have used the term untranslated, that is, anglicized
> them,
> > which can be useful to a point here. However, if asava gets around
> long
> > enough like nirvana, dharma, karma, etc, we will get used to its
> meaning.
> >
> > I'm often guided by the dictum "the word is not the thing." Terms and
> > translations are at best little key-holes or windows for us to open
> (with
> > the right key) or see through to envision true reality. As such, no
> > translation is perfect, and we need the direct knowledge of
> mindfulness of
> > that inner eye cultivating stillness and clarity.
> >
> > We should get used to the idea that there is no one way of translating
> a
> > Pali word or term. While Pali is a classical language of early
> Buddhism,
> > which has more or less "frozen" and preserved the intended senses in
> some
> > way, English is a living and growing language.
> >
> > Decades back ex-PTS President, Miss I B Horner wrote me in a letter
> saying
> > that ideally a new translation of the Pali texts should be done every
> 50
> > years or so.
> >
> > NVG wrote:
> > > I'm often guided by the dictum "the word is not the thing." Terms
> and
> > > translations are at best little key-holes or windows for us to open
> > > (with
> > > the right key) or see through to envision true reality. As such, no
> > > translation is perfect, and we need the direct knowledge of
> > > mindfulness of
> > > that inner eye cultivating stillness and clarity.
> > --------
> > N: I most heartily agree with you here. If we only think of words we
> > shall have theoretical understanding of the Dhamma. But the teachings
> > refer to realities in daily life. The characteristics of realities
> > can be understood when they appear at the present moment.
> > Thus, the aasavas are flowing right now so long as there are
> > conditions for their arising. Each section of the Dhamma illustrates
> > the truth that what we take for self are only conditioned phenomena.
> > We keep on forgetting the truth and thus we have to be reminded again
> > and again.
> > I quote from my "Cetasikas":
> > <There are four aasavas (Dhammasanga.ni 1096-1100):
> >
> > the canker of sensuous desire, kaamaasava
> > the canker of becoming, bhavaasava
> > the canker of wrong view, dit.t.thaasava
> > the canker of ignorance, avijjaasava
> >
> > The Atthasalinii (I, Part I, Chapter II, 48) explains that aasavas
> > flow from the senses and the mind. In all planes where there is nama
> > arising aasavas occur, even in the highest plane of existence which
> > is the fourth aruupa-brahma plane. The aasavas are like liquor which
> > has fermented for a long time, the Atthasalinii explains. The aasavas
> > are like poisonous drugs or intoxicants. The Visuddhimagga (XXIl, 56)
> > states that the aasavas are exuding "from unguarded sense-doors like
> > water from cracks in a pot, in the sense of constant trickling". The
> > aasavas keep on flowing from birth to death, they are also flowing at
> > this moment, Are we not attached to what we see? Then there is the
> > canker of sensuous desire, kaamaasava. Seeing experiences visible
> > object, and shortly after seeing has fallen away there are most of
> > the time akusala cittas rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance.
> > When the object is pleasant there is likely to be attachment to the
> > object because we have accumulated such a great deal of attachment.
> > We are attached to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible
> > object. We are infatuated with the objects we experience through the
> > senses and we want to go on experiencing them. Because of our foolish
> > attachment to what is actually impermanent we have to continue to be
> > in the cycle of birth and death. We have to be reborn again and again
> > until the cankers have been extinguished. The arahat has eradicated
> > the cankers, he does not have to be reborn again. >
> > ------
> > P: I have chosen "influx" which is close to the etymology, of
> sense-data
> > > glowing IN and flooding our sense-faculties, and so defiling our
> > > system
> > > because we fail to see them as they are. "Effluent" I think comes
> > > from EX
> > > (out) + fluent, meaning OUT flow. It is used sometimes in reference
> to
> > > industrial waste and pollutant that flow OUT into the drainage
> > > system, etc.
> > -------
> > N: Yes, it is dirty. I like the idea of constant trickling like water
> > from cracks in a pot. This happens when the sense-doors are not
> > guarded by mindfulness.
> > DCW wrote:
> > I would go for "canker" as the translation of aasava.
> > It most probably comes from aa + savati. Savati would mean flow. So
> aasavati
> > would be flow in. So aasava is what is in one's mind having flowed in.
> > aasava can increase or decrease or completely eradicated. aasavas when
> they flow
> > in increase suffering etc (vighataparilaahaa)
> > canker is a disease (apple trees). Obviously when the disease comes it
> increases
> > the suffering of the tree.
> > Oxford Dictionary gives the following for the figurative meaning of
> canker:
> > (figurative) a malign and corrupting influence that is difficult to
> eradicate.
> >
> > Canker is the word used by Acarya Buddharakkhita in his translation of
> > Sabbaasavasutta including a commentary (Published as a book by BPS).
> >
> > By the way aasava is a disease of the mind.
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>