From: stefan_karpik
Message: 14515
Date: 2010-02-28
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "notwainwright" <stephen.wainwright@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, please accept my apologies if this message is posted more than once,
> I have not used yahoo groups in a while, and got a bit confused with the
> posting procedure. Sorry if you get this more than once.
>
>
> I got a bit interested in looking for a better translation of
> Äsava, as I think "taints", "cankers" and
> "effluents" are all not very clear they all require most
> people to reach for a dictionary, and rely on fairly obtuse metaphors,
> in my opinion.
>
>
>
> The PTS dictionary has these three entries:
>
>
>
> "1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or secretion of a tree or
> flower, 2. discharge from a sore, 3. in psychology, t.t. for certain
> specified ideas which intoxicate the mind (bemuddle it, befoozle it, so
> that it cannot rise to higher things). Freedom from the "Äsavas"
> constitutes Arahantship, & the fight for the extinction of these
> Äsavas forms one of the main duties of man. "
>
>
>
> It seems that "cankers" then has come from the first definition,
> but I think that if we look at what the 4 Äsava are [sense-desire
> (kaamaasava) (2) desire for continued existence (bhavaasava) (3) wrong
> views (di.t.thiaasava: and (4) ignorance (avijjaasava)] then I think it
> is very clear that we are talking about a psychological phenomena, and
> there is no need for a metaphoric usage such as "taints",
> "cankers" or "effluents".
>
> The word comes from the root "sru "to flow" so PTS
> says literally it means "that which flows (out or on to) outflow &
> influx"
>
> For this reason Roderick S. Bucknell, Martin Stuart-Fox (in The Twilight
> Language: Explorations in Buddhist Meditation and Symbolism click here
> to see it
> <http://books.google.ch/books?id=hKd3oxn9URUC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=influe\
> nce+asava&source=bl&ots=Udf5GzVz1F&sig=-1SqXoWBOXRaE-tQUtQjJxx7Nhc&hl=en\
> &ei=pm1-S6fIHZaG_AaR9MSpDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0C\
> AsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=influence%20asava&f> ) suggests that
> "influence" is the correct literal translation of
> "asava" , and I have since found another suggestion of this use,
> in a classic transation of Vinaya texts: (Vinaya texts, Volume 1 By
> Thomas William Rhys Davids, Hermann Oldenberg
> <http://books.google.ch/books?id=q__JFBpeLGgC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=infl\
> uence+asava&source=bl&ots=GNvCMOMaM8&sig=_tzh9D4xM0uMGHkRmAH_H4kgnqU&hl=\
> en&ei=2mt-S_WgIJOG_AbOzwE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA\
> 4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=influence%20asava&f=> )
>
>
>
> Walshe
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023x.wlsh.html#n-2
> <http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023x.wlsh.html#n-2\
> > ), suggests another alternative of "intoxicants" which might
> also capture the idea better.
>
> But I do believe "negative influence" (or "bad influence)
> captures much better the sense of Äsava, the only problem being
> that it sounds quite mild in comparison to canker, effluent & intoxicant
> but it is at least easily understood. It could perhaps be
> strengthened to "poisonous influence" or "intoxicating influence".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "fcckuan" <fcckuan@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to all for the suggestions. I have no illusions that there can
> be one perfect word to translate aasava any more than one perfect word
> to transalte dukkha or any other major buddhist term. My question was
> mostly motivated by trying to understand why major translators use very
> different english terms. It seems absurd that I'm spending more energy
> and effort trying to keep track of all the english translations of
> aasava, compared to just learning the pali and using the pali word
> directly. In case the topic of aasava comes up on the list again in the
> future, I've summarized the discussion below, and also included the DPR
> entry for aasava:
> >
> >
> > Āsava [fr. ā + sru, would corresp. to a Sk. *āsrava,
> cp. Sk. āsrāva. The BSk. āśrava is a (wrong)
> sankritisation of the Pāli āsava, cp. Divy 391 &
> kṣīnāśrava] that which ;
> >
> > -- 115 --
> >
> > flows (out or on to) outflow & influx.
> > 1. spirit, the intoxicating extract or secretion of a tree or
> flower, O. C in Vin ;iv.110 (four kinds); B. on D iii.182 (five kinds
> DhsA 48; KhA 26; J iv.222; vi.9.
> > -- 2. discharge from a sore, A i.124, 127 = Pug 30. -
> > - 3. in psychology t.t. for certain specified ideas which
> intoxicate the mind (bemuddle it, befoozle it, so that it cannot rise to
> higher things). Freedom from the "Āsavas" constitutes Arahantship,
> & the fight for the extinction of these āsavas forms one of the
> main duties of man. On the difficulty of translating the term see ;Cpd.
> 227. See also discussion of term āsava (= āsavantī ti
> āsavā) at DhsA 48 (cp Expositor pp. 63 sq). See also Cpd. 227
> sq., & especially ;Dhs trsl. 291 sq.
> > -- The 4 āsavas are kām˚, bhav˚
> diṭṭh˚, avijj˚;, i. e. sensuality, rebirth (lust
> of life), speculation and ignorance. -- They are mentioned as such at D
> ii.81, 84, 91, 94, 98, 123, 126; A i.165 sq., 196 ii.211; iii.93, 414;
> iv.79; Ps i.94, 117; Dhs 1099, 1448 Nd2 134; Nett 31, 114 sq. -- The set
> of 3, which is probably older (kāma˚, bhava˚,
> avijjā˚) occurs at M i. 55 A i.165; iii.414; S iv.256; v.56,
> 189; It 49; Vbh 364 For other connections see Vin i.14
> (anupādāya āsavehi cittani vimucciŋsu), 17, 20, 182;
> ii.202; iii.5 (˚samudaya ˚nirodha etc.); D i.83, 167; iii.78,
> 108, 130, 220, 223 230, 240, 283; M i.7 sq., 23, 35, 76, 219, 279, 445
> (˚ṭhāniya); ii.22; iii.72, 277; S ii.187 sq. (˚ehi
> cittaŋ vimucci); iii.45 (id.); iv.107 (id.), 20; v.8, 28, 410; A
> i.85 sq. (vaḍḍhanti), 98, 165 (˚samudaya, ˚nirodha
> etc.) 187; ii.154 (˚ehi cittaŋ vimuttaŋ), 196; iii.21, 93
> (˚samudaya, ˚nirodha etc.), 245, 387 sq., 410, 414; iv.13, 146
> (˚pariyādāna end of the ā.), 161 (˚vighāta
> -- pariḷāha); v.70 237a; Th 2, 4, 99, 101 (pahāsi
> āsave sabbe); Sn 162 374, 535 (pl. āsavāni), 546, 749,
> 915, 1100; Dh 93 253, 292; Nd1 331 (pubb˚); Vbh 42, 64, 426; Pug 11
> 13, 27, 30 sq.; Miln 419; DhsA 48; ThA 94, 173; KhA 26; DA i 224; Sdhp
> 1; Pgdp 65 (piyāsava -- surā, meaning?).
> > Referring specially to the extinction (khaya) of the āsavas &
> to Arahantship following as a result are the foll. passages:
> > (1) ;āsavānaŋ khaya D i.156; S ii.29 214; iii 57,
> 96 sq, 152 sq; iv.105, 175; v.92, 203 220, 271, 284; A i.107 sq., 123
> sq., 232 sq., 273, 291 ii.6, 36, 44 sq., 149 sq., 214; iii 69, 114, 131,
> 202, 306 319 sq.; iv.83 sq., 119, 140 sq., 314 sq.; v.10 sq., 36, 69, 94
> sq, 105, 132, 174 sq., 343 sq.; It 49; Pug 27, 62; Vbh 334, 344; Vism 9;
> DA i.224; cp. ˚parikkhaya A v 343 sq. See also arahatta formula C.
> > -- (2) khīṇāsava (adj. one whose Āsavas are
> destroyed (see khīṇa) S i.13, 48 53, 146; ii 83, 239;
> iii.199, 128, 178; iv.217; A i 77 109, 241, 266; iv.120, 224, 370 sq.; v
> 40, 253 sq.; Ps ii 173; cp. parikkhīṇā āsavā A
> iv.418, 434, 451 sq. āsavakhīṇa Sn 370.
> > -- (3) anāsava (adj.) one who is free from the āsavas,
> an Arahant Vin ii.148 = 164; D iii.112; S i 130; ii.214, 222; iii.83;
> iv.128; A i.81, 107 sq., 123 sq., 273, 291; ii.6, 36, 87, 146; iii.19,
> 29, 114 166; iv.98, 140 sq., 314 sq., 400; A v.10 sq., 36, 242 340; Sn
> 1105, 1133; Dh 94, 126, 386; Th i.100; It 75; Nd2 44; Pv ii.615; Pug 27;
> Vbh 426; Dhs 1101, 1451 VvA 9. Cp. nirāsava ThA 148. -- Opp.
> sāsava S iii 47 v.232; A i.81 v.242; Dhs 990; Nett 10; Vism 13,
> 438.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lightly edited Summary of Discussion on various translations of
> "aasava" from pali forum on yahoo on Feb. 2010
> >
> > FK wrote:
> > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/aasava.htm
> > dictionary uses: cankers
> >
> > B.bodhi uses: taints
> > thanissaro: fermentations (also effluents?)
> >
> > I prefer either canker or taint myself, probably canker because the
> > meaning is very clear, that there is something undesirable festering
> > within us.
> > fermentations doesn't strike me the same way. I think of making beer,
> or
> > the fermented foods like tempeh, sauerkraut, yogurt. It doesn't have a
> > negative connotation, in fact the first impression is positive.
> >
> > effluents? I'm a fluent english speaker and I didn't know that word.
> Had
> > to look that one up. Effluent? I thought it had something to do with
> > language (as in fluency), or something to do with "affluence".
> >
> > LL wrote:
> > I personally like the more literal in+flux (ā + sava) and think
> of a moment where sensual desires or opinions (just to name two
> āsava) become so strong that they overpower us like the wave of a
> tsunami :-)
> > PT wrote:
> > Up to some years back, I had been using "canker" for aasava. But as
> you
> > mentioned, it is a poetic term. A poetic term is best used in verses
> or
> > contexually as the occasion dictates.
> >
> > I have chosen "influx" which is close to the etymology, of sense-data
> > glowing IN and flooding our sense-faculties, and so defiling our
> system
> > because we fail to see them as they are. "Effluent" I think comes from
> EX
> > (out) + fluent, meaning OUT flow. It is used sometimes in reference to
> > industrial waste and pollutant that flow OUT into the drainage system,
> etc.
> >
> > Some scholars have used the term untranslated, that is, anglicized
> them,
> > which can be useful to a point here. However, if asava gets around
> long
> > enough like nirvana, dharma, karma, etc, we will get used to its
> meaning.
> >
> > I'm often guided by the dictum "the word is not the thing." Terms and
> > translations are at best little key-holes or windows for us to open
> (with
> > the right key) or see through to envision true reality. As such, no
> > translation is perfect, and we need the direct knowledge of
> mindfulness of
> > that inner eye cultivating stillness and clarity.
> >
> > We should get used to the idea that there is no one way of translating
> a
> > Pali word or term. While Pali is a classical language of early
> Buddhism,
> > which has more or less "frozen" and preserved the intended senses in
> some
> > way, English is a living and growing language.
> >
> > Decades back ex-PTS President, Miss I B Horner wrote me in a letter
> saying
> > that ideally a new translation of the Pali texts should be done every
> 50
> > years or so.
> >
> > NVG wrote:
> > > I'm often guided by the dictum "the word is not the thing." Terms
> and
> > > translations are at best little key-holes or windows for us to open
> > > (with
> > > the right key) or see through to envision true reality. As such, no
> > > translation is perfect, and we need the direct knowledge of
> > > mindfulness of
> > > that inner eye cultivating stillness and clarity.
> > --------
> > N: I most heartily agree with you here. If we only think of words we
> > shall have theoretical understanding of the Dhamma. But the teachings
> > refer to realities in daily life. The characteristics of realities
> > can be understood when they appear at the present moment.
> > Thus, the aasavas are flowing right now so long as there are
> > conditions for their arising. Each section of the Dhamma illustrates
> > the truth that what we take for self are only conditioned phenomena.
> > We keep on forgetting the truth and thus we have to be reminded again
> > and again.
> > I quote from my "Cetasikas":
> > <There are four aasavas (Dhammasanga.ni 1096-1100):
> >
> > the canker of sensuous desire, kaamaasava
> > the canker of becoming, bhavaasava
> > the canker of wrong view, dit.t.thaasava
> > the canker of ignorance, avijjaasava
> >
> > The Atthasalinii (I, Part I, Chapter II, 48) explains that aasavas
> > flow from the senses and the mind. In all planes where there is nama
> > arising aasavas occur, even in the highest plane of existence which
> > is the fourth aruupa-brahma plane. The aasavas are like liquor which
> > has fermented for a long time, the Atthasalinii explains. The aasavas
> > are like poisonous drugs or intoxicants. The Visuddhimagga (XXIl, 56)
> > states that the aasavas are exuding "from unguarded sense-doors like
> > water from cracks in a pot, in the sense of constant trickling". The
> > aasavas keep on flowing from birth to death, they are also flowing at
> > this moment, Are we not attached to what we see? Then there is the
> > canker of sensuous desire, kaamaasava. Seeing experiences visible
> > object, and shortly after seeing has fallen away there are most of
> > the time akusala cittas rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance.
> > When the object is pleasant there is likely to be attachment to the
> > object because we have accumulated such a great deal of attachment.
> > We are attached to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible
> > object. We are infatuated with the objects we experience through the
> > senses and we want to go on experiencing them. Because of our foolish
> > attachment to what is actually impermanent we have to continue to be
> > in the cycle of birth and death. We have to be reborn again and again
> > until the cankers have been extinguished. The arahat has eradicated
> > the cankers, he does not have to be reborn again. >
> > ------
> > P: I have chosen "influx" which is close to the etymology, of
> sense-data
> > > glowing IN and flooding our sense-faculties, and so defiling our
> > > system
> > > because we fail to see them as they are. "Effluent" I think comes
> > > from EX
> > > (out) + fluent, meaning OUT flow. It is used sometimes in reference
> to
> > > industrial waste and pollutant that flow OUT into the drainage
> > > system, etc.
> > -------
> > N: Yes, it is dirty. I like the idea of constant trickling like water
> > from cracks in a pot. This happens when the sense-doors are not
> > guarded by mindfulness.
> > DCW wrote:
> > I would go for "canker" as the translation of aasava.
> > It most probably comes from aa + savati. Savati would mean flow. So
> aasavati
> > would be flow in. So aasava is what is in one's mind having flowed in.
> > aasava can increase or decrease or completely eradicated. aasavas when
> they flow
> > in increase suffering etc (vighataparilaahaa)
> > canker is a disease (apple trees). Obviously when the disease comes it
> increases
> > the suffering of the tree.
> > Oxford Dictionary gives the following for the figurative meaning of
> canker:
> > (figurative) a malign and corrupting influence that is difficult to
> eradicate.
> >
> > Canker is the word used by Acarya Buddharakkhita in his translation of
> > Sabbaasavasutta including a commentary (Published as a book by BPS).
> >
> > By the way aasava is a disease of the mind.
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>