Dear Jon

Thanks. When I had to delve into this verse of HVV (CSCD), and also in
response to another private email on Mahaava.msa .Tiikaa, I saw how poor is
the state of the CSCD texts of the category anya.It is far, far worse than
the state of its Tipi.taka texts. Must be a reflection of the condition of
available printed texts. In Sri Lanka some of these books
(likeMahaabodhiva.msa, Thuupava.msa, Daa.thaava.msa) have been scrutinized
by editors of their old Sinhala translations. Those editions are of course
in the Sinhala script. Sinhala text editors have however a 'reputation' for
being too bold and all too ready to change a reading without MS support.
When one actually handles such texts, one learns to make use of various
clues, such as metre, parallel passages elsewhere in the same works etc.
etc. When using metre one must of course first make sure that the author has
used metre competently throughout the text.

Mahinda

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Jon Fernquest <bayinnaung@...> wrote:

> Mahinda: "I don't know if we should keep on hammering on this, to me,
> rather unobscure verse. The others will probably find it very boring...
> The Hattha-vana-galla-vihaara-va.msa is a composition modelled on the
> classical Skt kaavya, in which observance of metre is inviolable. It deals
> with the legendaary story of the Sinhala King Sri Sanghabodhi...That text
> has been subjected to a thorough examination by the veteran Sinhala scholar
> Kumaratunga."
>
> Thank you so much for all the information you provide. I've only read about
> this work in Malalasekera's "The Pali Literature of Ceylon."
>
> Your lesson about the importance of meter in disambiguating meaning in a
> translation is very important and not obvious at all.
>
> The local Pali literatures of Thailand, Burma, Chiang Mai, the Mon, are
> understudied and the importance of studying them has been highlighted by
> recently Peter Skilling president of the Pali Text Society. I hope to learn
> more about the Pali literature of Sri Lanka.
>
> I recently learned of the Mahaanaagakula-sandesa (ed. Madovita Gnanavimala,
> Colombo, 1925) on religious contacts between Sri Lanka in the 13th century.
> Pali scholar Pat Pranke also translated a long lost part Pali, part Burmese
> history of Buddhism in Burma in a Univ. of Mich. PhD dissertation in 2004.
>
> Pali has evolved and changed over time, so the history of Buddhism that
> documents contacts and influences would seem to be important in charting
> these changes.
>
> With metta,
> Jon Fernquest
>
> --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...<mahipal6%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@... <mahipal6%40gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Pali Day by Day G033 - The New Pali Course Part
> II - Ex 12
> > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 3:18 AM
>
> > Dear Florent,
> >
> > I don't know if we should keep on hammering on this, to
> > me, rather unobscure
> > verse. The others will probably find it very boring. Let me
> > just say this:
> > The Hattha-vana-galla-vihaara-va.msa is a composition
> > modelled on the
> > classical Skt kaavya, in which observance of metre is
> > inviolable. It deals
> > with the legendaary story of the Sinhala King Sri
> > Sanghabodhi, who is
> > reputed to have been the epitome of kindness and generosity
> > and who
> > abdicated kingship to please his avaricious cousin
> > Go.thaabhaya and
> > retreated to the Hattha-vana-galla forest to lead an
> > ascetic life. The
> > successor, in fear of the people's anger, wished to see
> > the end of
> > Sanghabodhi and promised to pay a large sum of money to
> > whoever brought
> > Sanghabodh's head. Sangabodhi, having heard from a
> > pilgrim that many heads
> > were being produced to win the prize, revealed himself to
> > the pilgrim and
> > severed his own head from the body to let the man produce
> > it before the
> > king. The ancient people of Lanka venerated Sangabodhi as
> > a bodhisattva.
> > So, whatever meaning we assign to the stanzas has to be in
> > consonance with
> > this story, In the instant verse the first 2 lines say that
> > Sangabodhi did
> > not have the heart to say "I don't have it"
> > or "I won't give it" whenever a
> > supplicant asked for a thing. ( "thing": this is
> > what 'vatthu' means here).
> > The last two lines follow from this." Due to the great
> > compassion that
> > filled his heart, there was no room left in it for
> > attachment to things
> > (vatthu-ta.nhaa). It is as if that (attachment) had (left
> > his heart and)
> > gone to a far off place." The 14th century Sinhala
> > version of the HVV also
> > interprest the stanza in this manner. That text has been
> > subjected to a
> > thorough examination by the veteran Sinhala scholar
> > Kumaratunga, who was
> > incidentally an absolute master of Sanskrit and Pali
> > languages as well.
> >
> > Although we can continue the conversation in the same vein
> > for the rest of
> > what you say, in the interests of the wider group, I would
> > prefer to call it
> > a day.
> >
> > Thanks and best wishes.
> >
> > Mahinda
> > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:43 AM, flrobert2000
> > <flrobert2000@... <flrobert2000%40yahoo.fr>> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Mahinda,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your very thorough
> > explanations. We
> > > discussed this half gaathaa with one of my pali
> > teachers.
> > > First of all let me point out all the differences
> > between the CSCD
> > > and Buddhadatta:
> > > 1. mahaakaru.naaya / mahaakaru.nayaa
> > > 2. paha.taavakaasaava / paha.taavakaasaa
> > > 3. dura.mjagaama / duura.m jagaama (please note the
> > short u in the
> > > CSCD)
> > > 4. tassa / tassa hi
> > > 5. bhavatthu ta.nhaa / vatthuta.nhaa
> > > To summarize, here's the CSCD version :
> > > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > > And here's Buddhadatta's version:
> > > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > > As you have pointed it out, the Buddhadatta version
> > perfectly fits
> > > the Vasantatilakaa meter of a sakkarii paada (14
> > syllables):
> > > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> > > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> > >
> > > Here's the CSCD version of the full gathaa which
> > indeed doesn't
> > > respect the meter at all, it's the least we can
> > say.
> > > Dehiiti vatthumasuka.m gaditotthikehi,
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLS (14 syllables)
> > > Naala.m kathetumha natthi na demicaati;
> > > LLSLLSLSSLSLS (13 syllables)
> > > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > > LLSLSSLSSSLSLLS (15 syllables)
> > > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > > SLSLSSSLSSLSLL (14 syllables)
> > >
> > > One could translate the two preceding paadas in the
> > following way:
> > >
> > > When asked (gadito) by the needy one (atthikehi)
> > "Give me such a
> > > thing(vatthumasuka.m)"
> > > You should not say "I don't have, I don't
> > give"
> > >
> > > Let's continue with : "Citte mahaakaru.nayaa
> > paha.taavakaasaa"
> > > You translated avakaassa by space. According to my
> > teacher it could
> > > also be avakaasa = chance, so this paada could mean
> > "this is a
> > > chance for the great compassion to strike in the
> > mind" or something
> > > like "This is a chance for the great compassion
> > to appear in his
> > > mind." if this makes more sense.
> > > He then translated "duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi
> > vatthuta.nhaa"
> > > by "it is hard for him to overcome the desire for
> > wealth", the idea
> > > being that although great compassion arises in his
> > mind, the desire
> > > for wealth is still strong and might always be an
> > obstacle in giving
> > > to the needy. Here he chose dura.m (difficult) instead
> > of duura.m
> > > (far) and extrapolated jagaama to overcome.
> > >
> > > We also had a look at the lines preceding this gaathaa
> > and had quite
> > > some problems with the syntax and spelling. According
> > to my teacher
> > > some of the paa.li is not standard such
> > > as "maatulamahaatherassa.mca" or
> > "saparivaara ve.naa kaani" or
> > > especially "sa"nasaparibhogaarahaani"
> > which he has never heard of
> > > before.
> > >
> > > So raajaa mahaa vihaare mahaggha mahaavisaala.m
> > salaakagga.m
> > > kaaraapetvaa anekasahassaana.m bhikkhuuna.m nicca.m
> > salaaka bhatta.m
> > > pa.t.thapesi. Maatulamahaatherassa.mca sakanaama
> > dheyyena mahanta.m
> > > parive.na vihaara.m kaaraapetvaa anekehi
> > kappiyabha.n.dehi saddhi.m
> > > saparivaara ve.naa kaani gaamakkhettaani sa
> > �nasaparibhogaarahaani
> > > katvaa daapesi sattameva nisiithakaale rahogato
> > mahaabodhisattassa
> > > dukkaracaritaani sallakkhento taadisaapadaana.m attani
> > > sampaadetumaasi.msi. Tathaa hi
> > >
> > > The meaning could be very approximately:
> > > "Having caused to build a very expensive and very
> > big room for
> > > distributing food by tickets the king always prepares
> > food for many
> > > monks. [�] Having gone to a lonely place around
> > midnight, he
> > > remembers the ascetic practices of the Buddha, and
> > wishes to be
> > > endowed with those attributes himself".
> > > avakaasaa= chances (nom. plur.)
> > >
> > > So if I understand well, it is the king's greed
> > for wealth which is
> > > referred to. It could either "have gone far
> > away" as you suggest it
> > > or it would also not be completely illogical to think
> > that it
> > > is "hard to overcome", for such a wealthy
> > person.
> > >
> > > I understand very well that you are certainly much
> > more familiar
> > > with the Hatthavanagallava.msa than my Pali teacher,
> > but I thought
> > > it could be interesting to mention what he said. By
> > the way, his
> > > name is venerable U Nodhi~naa.na and he teaches at the
> > ITBMU in
> > > Yangon.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Florent
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > -
> > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
> > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
> > [Pali Document Framework]
> > http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
> > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
> > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to
> > daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]