From: Mahinda Palihawadana
Message: 12916
Date: 2008-10-07
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Jon Fernquest <bayinnaung@...> wrote:
> Mahinda: "I don't know if we should keep on hammering on this, to me,
> rather unobscure verse. The others will probably find it very boring...
> The Hattha-vana-galla-vihaara-va.msa is a composition modelled on the
> classical Skt kaavya, in which observance of metre is inviolable. It deals
> with the legendaary story of the Sinhala King Sri Sanghabodhi...That text
> has been subjected to a thorough examination by the veteran Sinhala scholar
> Kumaratunga."
>
> Thank you so much for all the information you provide. I've only read about
> this work in Malalasekera's "The Pali Literature of Ceylon."
>
> Your lesson about the importance of meter in disambiguating meaning in a
> translation is very important and not obvious at all.
>
> The local Pali literatures of Thailand, Burma, Chiang Mai, the Mon, are
> understudied and the importance of studying them has been highlighted by
> recently Peter Skilling president of the Pali Text Society. I hope to learn
> more about the Pali literature of Sri Lanka.
>
> I recently learned of the Mahaanaagakula-sandesa (ed. Madovita Gnanavimala,
> Colombo, 1925) on religious contacts between Sri Lanka in the 13th century.
> Pali scholar Pat Pranke also translated a long lost part Pali, part Burmese
> history of Buddhism in Burma in a Univ. of Mich. PhD dissertation in 2004.
>
> Pali has evolved and changed over time, so the history of Buddhism that
> documents contacts and influences would seem to be important in charting
> these changes.
>
> With metta,
> Jon Fernquest
>
> --- On Mon, 10/6/08, Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...<mahipal6%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@... <mahipal6%40gmail.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Pali Day by Day G033 - The New Pali Course Part
> II - Ex 12
> > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Monday, October 6, 2008, 3:18 AM
>
> > Dear Florent,
> >
> > I don't know if we should keep on hammering on this, to
> > me, rather unobscure
> > verse. The others will probably find it very boring. Let me
> > just say this:
> > The Hattha-vana-galla-vihaara-va.msa is a composition
> > modelled on the
> > classical Skt kaavya, in which observance of metre is
> > inviolable. It deals
> > with the legendaary story of the Sinhala King Sri
> > Sanghabodhi, who is
> > reputed to have been the epitome of kindness and generosity
> > and who
> > abdicated kingship to please his avaricious cousin
> > Go.thaabhaya and
> > retreated to the Hattha-vana-galla forest to lead an
> > ascetic life. The
> > successor, in fear of the people's anger, wished to see
> > the end of
> > Sanghabodhi and promised to pay a large sum of money to
> > whoever brought
> > Sanghabodh's head. Sangabodhi, having heard from a
> > pilgrim that many heads
> > were being produced to win the prize, revealed himself to
> > the pilgrim and
> > severed his own head from the body to let the man produce
> > it before the
> > king. The ancient people of Lanka venerated Sangabodhi as
> > a bodhisattva.
> > So, whatever meaning we assign to the stanzas has to be in
> > consonance with
> > this story, In the instant verse the first 2 lines say that
> > Sangabodhi did
> > not have the heart to say "I don't have it"
> > or "I won't give it" whenever a
> > supplicant asked for a thing. ( "thing": this is
> > what 'vatthu' means here).
> > The last two lines follow from this." Due to the great
> > compassion that
> > filled his heart, there was no room left in it for
> > attachment to things
> > (vatthu-ta.nhaa). It is as if that (attachment) had (left
> > his heart and)
> > gone to a far off place." The 14th century Sinhala
> > version of the HVV also
> > interprest the stanza in this manner. That text has been
> > subjected to a
> > thorough examination by the veteran Sinhala scholar
> > Kumaratunga, who was
> > incidentally an absolute master of Sanskrit and Pali
> > languages as well.
> >
> > Although we can continue the conversation in the same vein
> > for the rest of
> > what you say, in the interests of the wider group, I would
> > prefer to call it
> > a day.
> >
> > Thanks and best wishes.
> >
> > Mahinda
> > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:43 AM, flrobert2000
> > <flrobert2000@... <flrobert2000%40yahoo.fr>> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Mahinda,
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your very thorough
> > explanations. We
> > > discussed this half gaathaa with one of my pali
> > teachers.
> > > First of all let me point out all the differences
> > between the CSCD
> > > and Buddhadatta:
> > > 1. mahaakaru.naaya / mahaakaru.nayaa
> > > 2. paha.taavakaasaava / paha.taavakaasaa
> > > 3. dura.mjagaama / duura.m jagaama (please note the
> > short u in the
> > > CSCD)
> > > 4. tassa / tassa hi
> > > 5. bhavatthu ta.nhaa / vatthuta.nhaa
> > > To summarize, here's the CSCD version :
> > > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > > And here's Buddhadatta's version:
> > > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > > As you have pointed it out, the Buddhadatta version
> > perfectly fits
> > > the Vasantatilakaa meter of a sakkarii paada (14
> > syllables):
> > > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> > > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> > >
> > > Here's the CSCD version of the full gathaa which
> > indeed doesn't
> > > respect the meter at all, it's the least we can
> > say.
> > > Dehiiti vatthumasuka.m gaditotthikehi,
> > > LLSLSSSLSSLSLS (14 syllables)
> > > Naala.m kathetumha natthi na demicaati;
> > > LLSLLSLSSLSLS (13 syllables)
> > > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > > LLSLSSLSSSLSLLS (15 syllables)
> > > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > > SLSLSSSLSSLSLL (14 syllables)
> > >
> > > One could translate the two preceding paadas in the
> > following way:
> > >
> > > When asked (gadito) by the needy one (atthikehi)
> > "Give me such a
> > > thing(vatthumasuka.m)"
> > > You should not say "I don't have, I don't
> > give"
> > >
> > > Let's continue with : "Citte mahaakaru.nayaa
> > paha.taavakaasaa"
> > > You translated avakaassa by space. According to my
> > teacher it could
> > > also be avakaasa = chance, so this paada could mean
> > "this is a
> > > chance for the great compassion to strike in the
> > mind" or something
> > > like "This is a chance for the great compassion
> > to appear in his
> > > mind." if this makes more sense.
> > > He then translated "duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi
> > vatthuta.nhaa"
> > > by "it is hard for him to overcome the desire for
> > wealth", the idea
> > > being that although great compassion arises in his
> > mind, the desire
> > > for wealth is still strong and might always be an
> > obstacle in giving
> > > to the needy. Here he chose dura.m (difficult) instead
> > of duura.m
> > > (far) and extrapolated jagaama to overcome.
> > >
> > > We also had a look at the lines preceding this gaathaa
> > and had quite
> > > some problems with the syntax and spelling. According
> > to my teacher
> > > some of the paa.li is not standard such
> > > as "maatulamahaatherassa.mca" or
> > "saparivaara ve.naa kaani" or
> > > especially "sa"nasaparibhogaarahaani"
> > which he has never heard of
> > > before.
> > >
> > > So raajaa mahaa vihaare mahaggha mahaavisaala.m
> > salaakagga.m
> > > kaaraapetvaa anekasahassaana.m bhikkhuuna.m nicca.m
> > salaaka bhatta.m
> > > pa.t.thapesi. Maatulamahaatherassa.mca sakanaama
> > dheyyena mahanta.m
> > > parive.na vihaara.m kaaraapetvaa anekehi
> > kappiyabha.n.dehi saddhi.m
> > > saparivaara ve.naa kaani gaamakkhettaani sa
> > �nasaparibhogaarahaani
> > > katvaa daapesi sattameva nisiithakaale rahogato
> > mahaabodhisattassa
> > > dukkaracaritaani sallakkhento taadisaapadaana.m attani
> > > sampaadetumaasi.msi. Tathaa hi
> > >
> > > The meaning could be very approximately:
> > > "Having caused to build a very expensive and very
> > big room for
> > > distributing food by tickets the king always prepares
> > food for many
> > > monks. [�] Having gone to a lonely place around
> > midnight, he
> > > remembers the ascetic practices of the Buddha, and
> > wishes to be
> > > endowed with those attributes himself".
> > > avakaasaa= chances (nom. plur.)
> > >
> > > So if I understand well, it is the king's greed
> > for wealth which is
> > > referred to. It could either "have gone far
> > away" as you suggest it
> > > or it would also not be completely illogical to think
> > that it
> > > is "hard to overcome", for such a wealthy
> > person.
> > >
> > > I understand very well that you are certainly much
> > more familiar
> > > with the Hatthavanagallava.msa than my Pali teacher,
> > but I thought
> > > it could be interesting to mention what he said. By
> > the way, his
> > > name is venerable U Nodhi~naa.na and he teaches at the
> > ITBMU in
> > > Yangon.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Florent
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
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