Dear Mahinda,

Sorry if I might have bored people with that verse. However, I must
say that I found the discussion triggered by those verses really
interesting, especially the part on Pali metrics and your last
message which gives a very detailed summary of that text.

At least it taught me how to count the syllables in Pali verses and
this leads to one last question. Why do we count as long the vowels
a, i, u preceded by double consonnants and does this mean one has to
actually lengthen them when one pronounces them?

I think this should probably bring the discussion on these verses to
an end. I understand they are quite unobscure for you but I suppose
you would agree that these was maybe not the easiest lines to ask a
beginner student in Pali to translate, especially when taken out of
context!

Kind regards,

Florent

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Florent,
>
> I don't know if we should keep on hammering on this, to me, rather
unobscure
> verse. The others will probably find it very boring. Let me just
say this:
> The Hattha-vana-galla-vihaara-va.msa is a composition modelled on
the
> classical Skt kaavya, in which observance of metre is inviolable.
It deals
> with the legendaary story of the Sinhala King Sri Sanghabodhi, who
is
> reputed to have been the epitome of kindness and generosity and who
> abdicated kingship to please his avaricious cousin Go.thaabhaya and
> retreated to the Hattha-vana-galla forest to lead an ascetic
life. The
> successor, in fear of the people's anger, wished to see the end of
> Sanghabodhi and promised to pay a large sum of money to whoever
brought
> Sanghabodh's head. Sangabodhi, having heard from a pilgrim that
many heads
> were being produced to win the prize, revealed himself to the
pilgrim and
> severed his own head from the body to let the man produce it
before the
> king. The ancient people of Lanka venerated Sangabodhi as a
bodhisattva.
> So, whatever meaning we assign to the stanzas has to be in
consonance with
> this story, In the instant verse the first 2 lines say that
Sangabodhi did
> not have the heart to say "I don't have it" or "I won't give it"
whenever a
> supplicant asked for a thing. ( "thing": this is what 'vatthu'
means here).
> The last two lines follow from this." Due to the great compassion
that
> filled his heart, there was no room left in it for attachment to
things
> (vatthu-ta.nhaa). It is as if that (attachment) had (left his
heart and)
> gone to a far off place." The 14th century Sinhala version of the
HVV also
> interprest the stanza in this manner. That text has been subjected
to a
> thorough examination by the veteran Sinhala scholar Kumaratunga,
who was
> incidentally an absolute master of Sanskrit and Pali languages as
well.
>
> Although we can continue the conversation in the same vein for the
rest of
> what you say, in the interests of the wider group, I would prefer
to call it
> a day.
>
> Thanks and best wishes.
>
> Mahinda
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 6:43 AM, flrobert2000 <flrobert2000@...>
wrote:
>
> > Dear Mahinda,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your very thorough explanations. We
> > discussed this half gaathaa with one of my pali teachers.
> > First of all let me point out all the differences between the
CSCD
> > and Buddhadatta:
> > 1. mahaakaru.naaya / mahaakaru.nayaa
> > 2. paha.taavakaasaava / paha.taavakaasaa
> > 3. dura.mjagaama / duura.m jagaama (please note the short u in
the
> > CSCD)
> > 4. tassa / tassa hi
> > 5. bhavatthu ta.nhaa / vatthuta.nhaa
> > To summarize, here's the CSCD version :
> > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > And here's Buddhadatta's version:
> > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > As you have pointed it out, the Buddhadatta version perfectly
fits
> > the Vasantatilakaa meter of a sakkarii paada (14 syllables):
> > Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa,
> > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> > Duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa.
> > LLSLSSSLSSLSLL
> >
> > Here's the CSCD version of the full gathaa which indeed doesn't
> > respect the meter at all, it's the least we can say.
> > Dehiiti vatthumasuka.m gaditotthikehi,
> > LLSLSSSLSSLSLS (14 syllables)
> > Naala.m kathetumha natthi na demicaati;
> > LLSLLSLSSLSLS (13 syllables)
> > Citte mahaakaru.naaya paha.taavakaasaava,
> > LLSLSSLSSSLSLLS (15 syllables)
> > Dura.mjagaama viya tassa bhavatthu ta.nhaa.
> > SLSLSSSLSSLSLL (14 syllables)
> >
> > One could translate the two preceding paadas in the following
way:
> >
> > When asked (gadito) by the needy one (atthikehi) "Give me such a
> > thing(vatthumasuka.m)"
> > You should not say "I don't have, I don't give"
> >
> > Let's continue with : "Citte mahaakaru.nayaa paha.taavakaasaa"
> > You translated avakaassa by space. According to my teacher it
could
> > also be avakaasa = chance, so this paada could mean "this is a
> > chance for the great compassion to strike in the mind" or
something
> > like "This is a chance for the great compassion to appear in his
> > mind." if this makes more sense.
> > He then translated "duura.m jagaama viya tassa hi vatthuta.nhaa"
> > by "it is hard for him to overcome the desire for wealth", the
idea
> > being that although great compassion arises in his mind, the
desire
> > for wealth is still strong and might always be an obstacle in
giving
> > to the needy. Here he chose dura.m (difficult) instead of duura.m
> > (far) and extrapolated jagaama to overcome.
> >
> > We also had a look at the lines preceding this gaathaa and had
quite
> > some problems with the syntax and spelling. According to my
teacher
> > some of the paa.li is not standard such
> > as "maatulamahaatherassa.mca" or "saparivaara ve.naa kaani" or
> > especially "sa"nasaparibhogaarahaani" which he has never heard of
> > before.
> >
> > So raajaa mahaa vihaare mahaggha mahaavisaala.m salaakagga.m
> > kaaraapetvaa anekasahassaana.m bhikkhuuna.m nicca.m salaaka
bhatta.m
> > pa.t.thapesi. Maatulamahaatherassa.mca sakanaama dheyyena
mahanta.m
> > parive.na vihaara.m kaaraapetvaa anekehi kappiyabha.n.dehi
saddhi.m
> > saparivaara ve.naa kaani gaamakkhettaani
sa »nasaparibhogaarahaani
> > katvaa daapesi sattameva nisiithakaale rahogato
mahaabodhisattassa
> > dukkaracaritaani sallakkhento taadisaapadaana.m attani
> > sampaadetumaasi.msi. Tathaa hi
> >
> > The meaning could be very approximately:
> > "Having caused to build a very expensive and very big room for
> > distributing food by tickets the king always prepares food for
many
> > monks. […] Having gone to a lonely place around midnight, he
> > remembers the ascetic practices of the Buddha, and wishes to be
> > endowed with those attributes himself".
> > avakaasaa= chances (nom. plur.)
> >
> > So if I understand well, it is the king's greed for wealth which
is
> > referred to. It could either "have gone far away" as you suggest
it
> > or it would also not be completely illogical to think that it
> > is "hard to overcome", for such a wealthy person.
> >
> > I understand very well that you are certainly much more familiar
> > with the Hatthavanagallava.msa than my Pali teacher, but I
thought
> > it could be interesting to mention what he said. By the way, his
> > name is venerable U Nodhi~naa.na and he teaches at the ITBMU in
> > Yangon.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Florent
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>