Dear PG,

Yes, you are right, it should be pa~n~naa here, which should be translated
as wisdom. Again, as I said "discernment" can be rather amorphous, unless
pre-defined,

Piya

On 1/4/07, P G Dave <pgd2507@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Piya,
>
> I was reading through everything again.
>
> I just noticed that Thanissaro Bhikkhu uses the phrase "well-tuned
> ('penetrated') by means of discernment" for "suppa.tividdhaa pa~n~naaya"
> or
> "well penetrated by wisdom" as you put it and not for "sa~n~naa" for which
> he uses the same word as you do -- "perception".
>
> Metta,
> PG
> ___________________________________
>
> On 1/2/07, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@... <dharmafarer%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear PG,
> >
> > As I often find Thanissaro's translation tedious reading, I have checked
> > the
> > Pali myself and finally come up with a provisional translation. The
> > Sutta's
> > meaning is much clearer now. Let me try to see if I can help you.
> >
> > On 12/30/06, pgd2507 <pgd2507@... <pgd2507%40gmail.com><pgd2507%40gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > 1.
> > > when Buddha talks about "what is in front and what is behind" is he
> > > referring to objects outside the body OR bodily sensations in front
> and
> > > on the back OR something else altogether?
> > >
> > > If he means outside objects, would it then imply that eyes be kept
> open?
> > >
> >
> > The Sutta itself simply explains this phrase as follows:
> >
> > "Here, bhikshus, *the perception of after and before* is well grasped by
> a
> > monk, well attended to mental­ly, well borne in mind, well penetrated by
> > wisdom."
> >
> > Pali: Idha bhikkhave bhikkhuno pacchaa,pure sa~n~naa suggahitaa hoti
> > sumanasikataa supadhaaritaa suppa.tividdhaa pa~n~naaya.
> >
> > If we follow Bhikkhu Bodhi's explanation, this means making your
> > meditation
> > thorough, in the beginning and in the ending. This may well be right,
> but
> > only part of the explanation.
> >
> > Often in the Suttas, we see "pacchaa,pure" to mean the past (the back)
> and
> > the future (the front). This has two senses:
> >
> > (1) keeping up the practice all the time, from beginning to end (similar
> > to
> > Bodhi's expl);
> >
> > (2) letting go of the past and the future: keeping one's mind firmly
> > rooted
> > in the present as in the Bhaddeka,ratta Sutta, M 131-134).
> >
> > > 2.
> > > what is meant by all these terms used in relation to perception:
> > > "well in hand", "well-attended to", "well-considered", "well-tuned
> > > ('penetrated')"
> > > how are these distinguished and distinctly attained?
> > > what are the pali words used for these phrases?
> > >
> >
> > My own intuitive interpretations:
> >
> > "well-grasped" (suggahitaa) = understood and learned well (his
> meditation
> > training).
> >
> > "well attended to mentally" (su-manasikataa) = having paid wise
> attention
> > to.
> >
> > "well borne in mind" (su-pa-dharitaa) = maintaining his mindfulness
> > steady,
> > remembering.
> >
> > "well penetrated" (su-p,pa.tividdhaa) = (1) constantly reflecting on
> > phenomena as "imperment, etc" (leading to streamwinning); (2) well
> > understood the true nature of phenomena, attained to arhathood.
> >
> > > 3.
> > > what kind of discernment is intended in the phrase, "by means of
> > > discernment"?
> > > is it about seeing in everything the inescapable trio of anicca,
> dukkha
> > > and anatta?
> > >
> > > Would someone be so kind as to throw some light..
> > >
> >
> > "Discernment" here is sa~n~naa, My preferred translation is
> "perception,"
> > imperfect as it is, it is better understood universally (even by those
> who
> > translate it otherwise). We define words, rather than words define us,
> or
> > as
> > one might say, "the uposatha was made for man" :) "Discernment" is also
> > confusing: Peter Harvey (in "Selfless Mind", 1995) uses it for
> vi~n~aa.na!
> >
> > Perception is (1) a class of meditation when a palpable (mentally or
> > physically) object is used for focussing the mind. Otherwise, (2) it can
> > refer to a "sign" (nimitta) that one experience in meditation, say about
> a
> > past event.
> >
> > Sa~n~naa (perception) is used in the Sutta in connection with the
> > following:
> > (1) perception of light (aaloka,sa~n~naa);
> > (2) the past and future (pacchaa,pure): letting for of the past and
> > future;
> > closely watching the present moment.
> >
> > Some translators try their best to find a unique word or term for every
> > Pali
> > word or term, or try to introduce a neologism which further confounds
> the
> > situation. (In rare situations, a neologism may help, but has to be
> > clearly
> > explained in a footnote, etc) But English is a living language and Pali
> a
> > scriptural language, both have their idioms. We translate meanings not
> > words. Moreover we can never find exact equivalent words between
> language,
> > as this would be against the law of non-self!
> >
> > We are translating a living Dharma for personal liberation, not a
> > technical
> > manual on science or computer language.
> >
> > It's all right if the translator is a traitor to the word (tradittore
> > traduttore), but never a traitor to the sense.
> >
> > [Sorry about the idiosyncratic fonts: I'm not sure how to change the
> fonts
> > in Gmail.]
> >
> > Happy new year!
> >
> > Piya Tan
> > The Minding Centre
> > http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


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