Re: SV: [Pali] bhikkhu=beggar?

Dear Yong Peng,

I agree with the points you make below concerning "beggar" not being
an appropriate current English translation for "bhikkhu", even though
of course that is it's etymological root.

The one thing I disagree on is "monk" being the best translation.
That has too many other connotations in English usage. I think now
that leaving it untranslated is best of all, and in fact that's what
Bhikkhu Bodhi does in all his modern translations - "Connected
Discourses of the Buddha", "In the Buddha's Words". And another
reason I like it is that bhikkhu can very often be expanded in meaning
in the suttas to mean any serious Buddhist practitioner (lay or
monastic), just as the Buddha expands the meanings of ariyan, brahman,
samana, etc. E.g., see chapter 25 (Bhikkhu vagga) of the Dhammapada.

With metta,
John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Gunnar, Ole, Rett and friends,
>
> I agree that beggar is not exactly the right word for bhikkhu.
>
> 1. In Pali, there are words for beggar, e.g. yaacaka, kapa.na, etc.
> Besides, the Vinaya is not rules for "monks" per se. And, bhikkhusangha
> is not exactly the community of beggars.
>
> 2. As such, bhikkhu is a word referring to a monastic, and going for
> alms rounds is just one of the many monastic rules. I still think the
> closest word for bhikkhu in English is monk. Furthermore, unlike
> beggars, monks have rules governing when and what they can 'beg' for,
> and other rules governing just the 'begging'. Unlike monks, I have not
> heard of rules for beggars 2500 years ago.
>
> 3. A bhikkhu is also different from a beggar in his social function and
> social status. A bhikkhu, unlike a beggar, has social obligations to
> the Sangha and the wider Buddhist community. A bhikkhu also has a
> social status much higher than a beggar.
>
> Of course, there are many more points which I must have missed. This is
> a good word to add to Pali Scope, if anyone is interested to expand on
> it. We can include the etymology of the word to contrast the difference
> between origin and usage.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo wrote:
>
> In any case, according to the Dhammapada, begging alone is not enough
> to make a bhikkhu in the Buddhist sense of the word (na tena bhikkhu
> hoti yaavataa bhikkhate pare).
>