Re: Meditative attainments

You are right. The word hindu did not exist in Buddha's time. The
Buddhist scriptures in pali use the word "anya titthaka" or titthakas
to describe the people who are called "hindus" today. And Pali
literature uses the word "nigantha nataputtikas" to describe the
people known as "jains" today.

Rajendra
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nagaraja Rao V Tripuroju
<nagarajat@...> wrote:

>
> The word 'hindu' was not there at the time of buddha!!
>
> :) Nagaraja.
>
> On 10/16/05, joseph <jothiko@...> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Thomas, Leo and friends,
> > There is a short discussion of the state in Chula Vedella Sutta
> > (Majjhime Nikaaye) and in the VisuddhiMagga
> > The way of purity. Tr. By Bhikhu NanaMoli.
> >
> > Further, Hope I will not burden you too much with the following
> > explanation; It is conjectural, maybe even speculative.
> > A risk, I believe necessary for these hanging-in-the-air

questions.

> >
> > 1 The Blessed One, the Buddha discovered the meditative states of
> > form absorptions `RuupaJhanas',
> > Which are based on the high moral standarts `Siila', he adopted
> > Through his many former lives as a `Bodhisattva'.
> > (This was suggested by the Venerable Ajahn BrahmaVamso
> > In his booklet `Aanaapaanasati').
> >
> > 2 because of that, He alone was able to tame the effectual
> > capabilities of the mind
> > `Vedaana' or maybe, the `unconsciousness'.
> >
> > `The virtue of the cognitive aspect (sann¯a) is to understand

and

> > Discriminate correctly; its vice is delusion and error. The virtue
> > Of the nonrational part of the psyche is to sense, feel, and

respond

> > Affectively in an appropriate manner; its vice is to swing to the
> > Extremes of craving (raga) and aversion (dosaa)
> > (Keown, the Nature of Buddhist Ethics'. P- 67)
> >
> > 3 It is suggested that `sanna' is connected to the conscious

aspect

> > of the psych,
> > This is related to the practice of insight vipassana, in order to
> > overcome ignorance, avijja,
> > The deepest aspect of the second truth of the source of suffering
> > `DhukaSumuda ariyasacca'.
> >
> > `Vedaana' complements the mind awareness of the effectual,
> > unconscious aspect,
> > Which is rooted in instincts assavaa,
> > And manifest as craving tanhaa.
> > (translating assavaa as influences, or out/influxes actually

confirm

> > the changing nature of both needs And evolutionary, innate
> > responses.)
> >
> > The pleasant leads to attraction lobhaa and the unpleasant to
> > aversion dosaa.
> > Vedaana is the deep, hidden part of the personality and is dealt
> > with by the practice of `Samathaa' composure, calm concentration.
> >
> > 4 the practices of the former yogi teachers were of the formless
> > absorptions
> > Aruupajhanaa, which are actually a practice of sati, mindfulness
> > rooted, admittedly, in a deep religious experience, an expanded
> > consciousness, if you will.
> > They are the possible practice of one who does not penetrate in
> > to `the development of the body' which is the form absorptions
> > ruupajhanaa.
> > These only will be referred to hence as jhaanaa.
> >
> > The fourth jhaanaa, though, in which the practitioner pervades all
> > with his
> > Bright `light of mind' has the ability of relating to these
> > practices, it seems, as a necessary connection, avenues of mind
> > development and knowledge of reality.
> > (the Venerable Ajhan Dhammadaro even calls them `Baahira' external
> > practices).
> >
> > 5 the proper practice of jhaanaa, as we said, enables one to
> > actually `narrow his field of concentration(), to a powerful spot
> > light of attention, we had described the progress of the
> > Jhaanaa in `the real way' paper.
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ju_buddha/files/8-pages-on-the%

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ju_buddha/files/8-pages-on-the%25>

> > 208foldpath.doc
> > Basically, it is a growing detailed examination of the body
> > properties, projected as the world, the relation rooted in the
> > blessed one dictum
> > `The world, I declare, is found within this fathom long body.'
> >
> > In the process, the notion of `naamaa kaaya' a mind made body is
> > examined,()
> > It is a proper yogic power of enhancement, of a sort, of the

ability

> > to sense
> > Touch, feel our own body, `from the inside' so to speak, made much
> > of and deeply inquired into.
> >
> > It is suggested that the `different jhaanaa are different,

existing

> > layers
> > (An amazing natural, axiomatic determination, maybe similar to the
> > electron paths around the atom nucleolus)
> > Of density of feeling, but they are based on the actual,

practical,

> > body properties.
> >
> > The four then, relate to:
> > 1 the full body, experience as one solid presence...
> > 2 the muscular tonal difference between the gross external five

limbs

> > (External from the heart): hands, feet, neck and head.
> > 3 the internal organs.
> > (the ability to distinguish/blend autonomous/controlled functions)
> > 4 the brain.
> >
> > 6 `Any recluse who attempts a separate description of Sanna
> > perception, (according to Venerable Ajahn Maha Boowa it is Memory)
> > Vedaana feeling (or shallow, immediate, cognition)
> > And vinnana `consciousness', I say it cannot be done'
> > (A quote of the Buddha, from memory)
> >
> > This important quotation indicates two vital facts:
> > 6.1 The very analysis, of the meditative states, was also

introduced

> > by the Blessed one
> > The Blessed one refers to himself as `VibhaJavadin' an Analyst,
> > thereby, and later qualify 'wisdom'
> > 'natti panna ajhayato''(there is) no analysis like insight'
> > (the Blessed one, where from?).
> >
> > 6.2 As we seen, the very practice of Dhamma, development of mind

and

> > development of wisdom, samathavipassanaa, is based on the Blessed
> > one deep insight.
> > While for a worldling puthujjaa, it is not possible to

differentiate

> > Mind into it's the above described components,
> > This lack of ability, which is also a deep truth, forms a

different

> > point of view.
> > The modern research of the brain indicates that there are no
> > `Dedicated areas' as to capabilities for storing memory,
> > Yet, we have certain areas connected by practical associations and
> > resemblance so that, for example, `there would be a certain area
> > Where we remember chairs', seeing a familiar face will generate

much

> > more activity in the `facial memories area' than a stranger face,
> > and so on'
> > (is it from `inquiring mind' magazine ? I wonder)
> > It is easy to see then, the source of many human problems, as
> > the `circulation of information in the brain, unavoidably mixes
> > an `emotional content.'
> > (memory, from an atlas of anatomy, I think)
> > At the same time, a modern notion is of the brain plasticity, the
> > ability to change, recover and rearrange, but it is the same from
> > the outset,
> > Conditioned as `sankhaara'.
> > Funny, enough, it reminds one of the problems of change and
> > selflessness, the very uncompromising deepest `depth'.
> >
> > 6.3 But the quotation is also, back to our direct subject, an
> > indication
> > That the state of SA~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha `neither perception
> > nor
> > Feeling' is a state of `arrest of consciousness', which
> > is `Nirodha'.
> > (This multi-level discourse, the different precision of reference
> > will be familiar to Dhamma inquirers. I believe, directing, as we
> > have so often seen, to different audiences, and a further, perfect
> > example of skillful means).
> >
> > 7 There by a decisive step from
> > 7.1 The `day dream like' state of Sa~n~aa-
> > naasa~n~naayatana, `neither perception nor non-perception', where
> > consciousness is only partial,
> > With constant changing of intensity of awareness,
> > The columniation of the formless `aaruppaa Jhaanaa' recognized by
> > other Indian practitioners, his former teachers,
> > A state where ignorance still holds a `self', a personality of an
> > observer, who sees `objectively'.
> >
> > 7.2 Sati mindfulness, is not a discovery of the Buddha, but may be
> > The very definition of the human
> > `Just as animals have the four body postures as a resort,
> > Man has the four bases of mindfulness as a resort'
> > (Satipatthanasamyuta, sanyuta nikaaye)
> >
> >
> > 7.3 For a Buddhist practitioner, the `black box' has to be

examined,

> > By The satipa.t.thaana method which breaks, analyses and disposes

> > The notion of a self, through the analysis of the aggregates.
> > The released one `had fully understood the four bases of
> > mindfulness'
> > (Same)
> > `We learn about the self so that we can forget the self
> > (Dogen)
> > Some, possibly but arguably, (the old discussion of
> > Vipassana'samatha) may not been able to do so because the mind is
> > not powerful enough, was not released by the practice of jhaanaa.
> >
> > 8 the state of SA~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha `neither perception nor
> > Feeling', `nirodha' is a technical synonym of Nibbaana' as when no
> > consciousness found, there `The world ends'.
> >
> > 9 According to the `Tipitaka' it is available to Arahante and
> > anagami's only, saints who have mastered Right concentration Sama
> > Samadhi (Which are the Jhanaa).
> > this conforms with the above as the state of Anagami 'nonreturner'
> > involes the surpassing of the fetters of
> > 'Kama' desire and Aviyapada illwill, clearly affective roots
> > associated with feeling.
> >
> > 9.1 Just in order to represent fairly the different views of the
> > matter,
> > There is a suggestion that the state of `Nirodha'
> > Is but a further `exercise' of Samadhi, and does not signify
> > an `ariye' noble, saintly state
> > (Venerable Ajahn Tate `the biography of a forest monk'
> > But again, from my memory)
> >
> > If that is so, may be, the reports of several Indian `fakirs'
> > Who were `buried alive' unconscious for weeks and emerged

unharmed,

> > May refer to similar `meditative power'.
> >
> > And see for example Papaji, the late Indian guru, recounts of his
> > death
> > In a former incarnation- as a Buddhist monk!
> >
> >
> > 10 the process of states may be the earliest description of
> > the `enlightenment process',
> > also that experienced by the `Blessed one' himself !
> >
> > The `decisive point' is not the attainment of `nirodha`,
> > Which is an `abhi.nha', the attainment of `ceto vimmuti'
> > `Release of mind'
> > But coming back from the state and `seeing with wisdom'
> > `Panna vimuti'.
> > The `release by wisdom', is the heart of the
> > teaching `Buddhasaasane' the religion of enlightenment.
> >
> > Therefore, as is said in Thailand, `Silena nibbuti.m yanti'!
> >
> > p.s. as I try to propagate the teachings of Buddhism,
> > I hope it will not seems as hurting others, but
> > The term `Hindu', the designation of a unified religion is of a

much

> > later, modern even, historical stage.
> > Actually, the practices and beliefs in India were many and

diverse,

> > More like a collection of cults.
> > I guess in former times, (possibly, in some quarters, today too)
> > For many, locally based, there was no distinction.
> > Not always a weakness but affirmation of the spirit of freedom.
> > The teaching should be seen as of that context, but of course,

also

> > of much beyond that
> > India was shaped also by Buddhaa and it is `only there that a

Buddha

> > may appear'
> > Bh. Jothiko
> > Any criticism, proper referencing, right translations of

quotations

> > And deservable rebuke are highly welcome.
> > Metta
> > Bh. Jothiko
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views

Exchange)"

> > <leoaive@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > As I know Buddha learned meditation from ascetics. I am not sure
> > if
> > > Hindu had a practice of self mortification. I think it was some
> > other
> > > group of people, practicing some supernatural ways. I would not
> > think
> > > Hindu would make them very acceptable with those practices for
> > their
> > > group of people.
> > >
> > > With metta
> > > Leo
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear All,
> > > >
> > > > Before the Buddha attained enlightenment, he learnt meditation
> > from
> > > the
> > > > two Hindu gurus, and attainted the meditation states,
> > > > aaki~nca~n~naayata and then n'eva sa~n~aa-naasa~n~naayatana.
> > That
> > > mean,
> > > > these two meditation states are from the Hindu tradition. How
> > about
> > > > this final meditation state, sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha

(nirodha-

> > > > samaapatti)? Does this state also come from or share with the
> > Hindu
> > > > meditation tradition? Or it is entirely a Buddhist meditation
> > > state,
> > > > not being shared with the Hindu tradition? Please give me
> > advice.
> > > Thank
> > > > you.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > Thomas Law
> > > >
> > >
> >
>