The word 'hindu' was not there at the time of buddha!!

:) Nagaraja.

On 10/16/05, joseph <jothiko@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Thomas, Leo and friends,
> There is a short discussion of the state in Chula Vedella Sutta
> (Majjhime Nikaaye) and in the VisuddhiMagga
> The way of purity. Tr. By Bhikhu NanaMoli.
>
> Further, Hope I will not burden you too much with the following
> explanation; It is conjectural, maybe even speculative.
> A risk, I believe necessary for these hanging-in-the-air questions.
>
> 1 The Blessed One, the Buddha discovered the meditative states of
> form absorptions `RuupaJhanas',
> Which are based on the high moral standarts `Siila', he adopted
> Through his many former lives as a `Bodhisattva'.
> (This was suggested by the Venerable Ajahn BrahmaVamso
> In his booklet `Aanaapaanasati').
>
> 2 because of that, He alone was able to tame the effectual
> capabilities of the mind
> `Vedaana' or maybe, the `unconsciousness'.
>
> `The virtue of the cognitive aspect (sa�n�n�a) is to understand and
> Discriminate correctly; its vice is delusion and error. The virtue
> Of the nonrational part of the psyche is to sense, feel, and respond
> Affectively in an appropriate manner; its vice is to swing to the
> Extremes of craving (raga) and aversion (dosaa)
> (Keown, the Nature of Buddhist Ethics'. P- 67)
>
> 3 It is suggested that `sanna' is connected to the conscious aspect
> of the psych,
> This is related to the practice of insight vipassana, in order to
> overcome ignorance, avijja,
> The deepest aspect of the second truth of the source of suffering
> `DhukaSumuda ariyasacca'.
>
> `Vedaana' complements the mind awareness of the effectual,
> unconscious aspect,
> Which is rooted in instincts assavaa,
> And manifest as craving tanhaa.
> (translating assavaa as influences, or out/influxes actually confirm
> the changing nature of both needs And evolutionary, innate
> responses.)
>
> The pleasant leads to attraction lobhaa and the unpleasant to
> aversion dosaa.
> Vedaana is the deep, hidden part of the personality and is dealt
> with by the practice of `Samathaa' composure, calm concentration.
>
> 4 the practices of the former yogi teachers were of the formless
> absorptions
> Aruupajhanaa, which are actually a practice of sati, mindfulness
> rooted, admittedly, in a deep religious experience, an expanded
> consciousness, if you will.
> They are the possible practice of one who does not penetrate in
> to `the development of the body' which is the form absorptions
> ruupajhanaa.
> These only will be referred to hence as jhaanaa.
>
> The fourth jhaanaa, though, in which the practitioner pervades all
> with his
> Bright `light of mind' has the ability of relating to these
> practices, it seems, as a necessary connection, avenues of mind
> development and knowledge of reality.
> (the Venerable Ajhan Dhammadaro even calls them `Baahira' external
> practices).
>
> 5 the proper practice of jhaanaa, as we said, enables one to
> actually `narrow his field of concentration(), to a powerful spot
> light of attention, we had described the progress of the
> Jhaanaa in `the real way' paper.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ju_buddha/files/8-pages-on-the%<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ju_buddha/files/8-pages-on-the%25>
> 208foldpath.doc
> Basically, it is a growing detailed examination of the body
> properties, projected as the world, the relation rooted in the
> blessed one dictum
> `The world, I declare, is found within this fathom long body.'
>
> In the process, the notion of `naamaa kaaya' a mind made body is
> examined,()
> It is a proper yogic power of enhancement, of a sort, of the ability
> to sense
> Touch, feel our own body, `from the inside' so to speak, made much
> of and deeply inquired into.
>
> It is suggested that the `different jhaanaa are different, existing
> layers
> (An amazing natural, axiomatic determination, maybe similar to the
> electron paths around the atom nucleolus)
> Of density of feeling, but they are based on the actual, practical,
> body properties.
>
> The four then, relate to:
> 1 the full body, experience as one solid presence...
> 2 the muscular tonal difference between the gross external five limbs
> (External from the heart): hands, feet, neck and head.
> 3 the internal organs.
> (the ability to distinguish/blend autonomous/controlled functions)
> 4 the brain.
>
> 6 `Any recluse who attempts a separate description of Sanna
> perception, (according to Venerable Ajahn Maha Boowa it is Memory)
> Vedaana feeling (or shallow, immediate, cognition)
> And vinnana `consciousness', I say it cannot be done'
> (A quote of the Buddha, from memory)
>
> This important quotation indicates two vital facts:
> 6.1 The very analysis, of the meditative states, was also introduced
> by the Blessed one�
> The Blessed one refers to himself as `VibhaJavadin' �an Analyst,
> thereby, and later qualify 'wisdom'
> 'natti panna ajhayato''(there is) no analysis like insight'
> (the Blessed one, where from?).
>
> 6.2 As we seen, the very practice of Dhamma, development of mind and
> development of wisdom, samathavipassanaa, is based on the Blessed
> one deep insight.
> While for a worldling puthujjaa, it is not possible to differentiate
> Mind into it's the above described components,
> This lack of ability, which is also a deep truth, forms a different
> point of view.
> The modern research of the brain indicates that there are no
> `Dedicated areas' as to capabilities for storing memory,
> Yet, we have certain areas connected by practical associations and
> resemblance so that, for example, `there would be a certain area
> Where we remember chairs', seeing a familiar face will generate much
> more activity in the `facial memories area' than a stranger face,
> and so on�'
> (is it from `inquiring mind' magazine ? I wonder)
> It is easy to see then, the source of many human problems, as
> the `circulation of information in the brain, unavoidably mixes
> an `emotional content.'
> (memory, from an atlas of anatomy, I think)
> At the same time, a modern notion is of the brain plasticity, the
> ability to change, recover and rearrange, but it is the same from
> the outset,
> Conditioned as `sankhaara'.
> Funny, enough, it reminds one of the problems of change and
> selflessness, the very uncompromising deepest `depth'.
>
> 6.3 But the quotation is also, back to our direct subject, an
> indication
> That the state of SA~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha � `neither perception
> nor
> Feeling' is a state of `arrest of consciousness', which
> is `Nirodha'.
> (This multi-level discourse, the different precision of reference
> will be familiar to Dhamma inquirers. I believe, directing, as we
> have so often seen, to different audiences, and a further, perfect
> example of skillful means).
>
> 7 There by a decisive step from
> 7.1 The `day dream like' state of Sa~n~aa-
> naasa~n~naayatana, `neither perception nor non-perception', where
> consciousness is only partial,
> With constant changing of intensity of awareness,
> The columniation of the formless `aaruppaa Jhaanaa' recognized by
> other Indian practitioners, his former teachers,
> A state where ignorance still holds a `self', a personality of an
> observer, who sees `objectively'.
>
> 7.2 Sati mindfulness, is not a discovery of the Buddha, but may be
> The very definition of the human
> `Just as animals have the four body postures as a resort,
> Man has the four bases of mindfulness as a resort'
> (Satipatthanasamyuta, sanyuta nikaaye)
>
>
> 7.3 For a Buddhist practitioner, the `black box' has to be examined,
> By The satipa.t.thaana method which breaks, analyses and disposes of
> The notion of a self, through the analysis of the aggregates.
> The released one `had fully understood the four bases of
> mindfulness'
> (Same)
> `We learn about the self so that we can forget the self
> (Dogen)
> Some, possibly but arguably, (the old discussion of
> Vipassana'samatha) may not been able to do so because the mind is
> not powerful enough, was not released by the practice of jhaanaa.
>
> 8 the state of SA~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha `neither perception nor
> Feeling', `nirodha' is a technical synonym of Nibbaana' as when no
> consciousness found, there `The world ends'.
>
> 9 According to the `Tipitaka' it is available to Arahante and
> anagami's only, saints who have mastered Right concentration Sama
> Samadhi (Which are the Jhanaa).
> this conforms with the above as the state of Anagami 'nonreturner'
> involes the surpassing of the fetters of
> 'Kama' desire and Aviyapada illwill, clearly affective roots
> associated with feeling.
>
> 9.1 Just in order to represent fairly the different views of the
> matter,
> There is a suggestion that the state of `Nirodha'
> Is but a further `exercise' of Samadhi, and does not signify
> an `ariye' � noble, saintly state�
> (Venerable Ajahn Tate `the biography of a forest monk'
> But again, from my memory)
>
> If that is so, may be, the reports of several Indian `fakirs'
> Who were `buried alive' unconscious for weeks and emerged unharmed,
> May refer to similar `meditative power'.
>
> And see for example Papaji, the late Indian guru, recounts of his
> death
> In a former incarnation- as a Buddhist monk!
>
>
> 10 the process of states may be the earliest description of
> the `enlightenment process',
> also that experienced by the `Blessed one' himself !
>
> The `decisive point' is not the attainment of `nirodha`,
> Which is an `abhi.nha', the attainment of `ceto vimmuti'
> `Release of mind'
> But coming back from the state and `seeing with wisdom'
> `Panna vimuti'.
> The `release by wisdom', is the heart of the
> teaching `Buddhasaasane' � the religion of enlightenment.
>
> Therefore, as is said in Thailand, `Silena nibbuti.m yanti'!
>
> p.s. as I try to propagate the teachings of Buddhism,
> I hope it will not seems as hurting others, but
> The term `Hindu', the designation of a unified religion is of a much
> later, modern even, historical stage.
> Actually, the practices and beliefs in India were many and diverse,
> More like a collection of cults.
> I guess in former times, (possibly, in some quarters, today too)
> For many, locally based, there was no distinction.
> Not always a weakness but affirmation of the spirit of freedom.
> The teaching should be seen as of that context, but of course, also
> of much beyond that�
> India was shaped also by Buddhaa and it is `only there that a Buddha
> may appear'
> Bh. Jothiko
> Any criticism, proper referencing, right translations of quotations
> And deservable rebuke are highly welcome.
> Metta
> Bh. Jothiko
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo (All Intelligent Views Exchange)"
> <leoaive@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > As I know Buddha learned meditation from ascetics. I am not sure
> if
> > Hindu had a practice of self mortification. I think it was some
> other
> > group of people, practicing some supernatural ways. I would not
> think
> > Hindu would make them very acceptable with those practices for
> their
> > group of people.
> >
> > With metta
> > Leo
> >
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > > Before the Buddha attained enlightenment, he learnt meditation
> from
> > the
> > > two Hindu gurus, and attainted the meditation states,
> > > aaki~nca~n~naayata and then n'eva sa~n~aa-naasa~n~naayatana.
> That
> > mean,
> > > these two meditation states are from the Hindu tradition. How
> about
> > > this final meditation state, sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha (nirodha-
> > > samaapatti)? Does this state also come from or share with the
> Hindu
> > > meditation tradition? Or it is entirely a Buddhist meditation
> > state,
> > > not being shared with the Hindu tradition? Please give me
> advice.
> > Thank
> > > you.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Thomas Law
> > >
> >
>