Dear Stephen,

Stephen Hodge wrote:

> Dear Yong Peng,
>
> > 1. subhanimitta (gives rise to) sensual pleasure (negates with)
> > asubhanimitta.
> This has all the makings of yet another heated discussion. However, if one
> says that "nimitta" in this context are external to the perceiver and inhere
> in the perceived object, then one needs to give an explanation of "subha"
> etc. Thus, if a "nimitta" is objectively "subha" then that quality of
> "subha" ought to be the same for all people. Let us take the example of a
> woman since that is mentioned in the suttas here. If the "subha-nimitta" is
> an objective feature of the woman, then how does one account for the
> different reactions one might have ? For example, in modern Western culture
> fat women are rarely considered beautiful, but in other cultures, such as
> some traditional African cultures, fat women are considered attractive and
> desirable. This seems to indicate that the "subha-nimitta" must be
> subjective and related specifically to the perceiver.
>

Perhaps "another heated discussion" has begun; others might say "passionate
argument"; yet still others, "more bull...." and so on. My point is we are dealing
with conventional language (Ara.navibha.nga Sutta, M 139): words often have
contextual sense/s. Anyway I hope this discussion, like the warm bright sun on a cold
winter night, would bring more light and warmth that fire and heat. I recall as a
teenager when I repeatedly asked a visiting monk in my Malaysia about anattaa. He
gave a very profound answer the first time, which took time to digest. I remember
asking him the same question and different ways over 3-4 months and not once he
showed any annoyance until I could understand what he was trying to say. Patient and
calm teachers are a great blessing to learners.

Coming to your statement above with which I very much agree as what actually happens
by way of "abhisa.nkharoti" etc. Related passages however do help in our
understanding of the Anguttara passage at the centre of our discussion.

I would like to point to a few passages which hopefully would help us (including
myself) to understand the mental or psychological process through which lust or
sexual desire arises. Firstly, (in no order of priority intended), there is the
Nibbedhika Pariyaaya Sutta (A 6.63), with which the Saoga Sutta (A 7.48) should be
studied:

3b There are these five cords of sensual pleasures (kaama,gu.na):
Forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, attractive, pleasant, endearing,
associated with sensuality, delightful;
Sounds cognizable by the ear that are,delightful;
Smells cognizable by the nose that aredelightful;
Tastes cognizable by the tongue that aredelightful;
Touches cognizable by the body that are desirable, attractive, pleasant, endearing,
associated with sensuality, delightful.
Monks, these are not sensual objects (kaama), but in the Noble Discipline, they are
called cords of sensual desire (kaama,gu.na).

The thought of passion is a persons sensuality:
There is no sensuality in what is beautiful (citra) in the world.
The thought of passion is a persons sensuality:
What is beautiful in the world remains as they are.
So here the wise remove the desire for them. (A 6.63.3/3:411)

An almost identical verse (without line c) is found in the Na Santi Sutta (S
1.34/1:22). The Indriya Bhaavanaa Sutta (M 152) similarly teaches the mastery over
ones sense-faculties rather than removing the sense-objects (which have the natural
right to be where they are). When the brahmin student Uttara tells the Buddha that
his teacher, Paaraasariyas method of developing the faculties is by way of not seeing
forms with the eyes, and not listening to sounds with the ear, the Buddha replies:

In that case, Uttara, a blind and a deaf man would have developed faculties,
according to what the brahmin Paaraasariya says! For a blind man does not see forms
with the eye, and a deaf man does not hear sounds with the ear. (M
152.2/3:298)

The best way to train ones faculties is not to think in terms of like and dislike,
dwelling fully aware, when the world of the senses impinges upon one (M
152.11-16/3:301). This teaching in summarized in this well known pericope, that is,
the Buddhas teaching to such disciples as Baahiya Daaruciiriya (U 8) and
Maalu.nkyaa,putta (S 35.95):

In what is seen, there will only be the seen.
In what is heard, there will only be the heard.
In what is sense, there will only be the sensed [smelt, tasted, touched].
In what is known, there will only be the known [cognized]. (U 8; S 35.95.13/4:73)

From the above passages, we can see that the external objects are merely the
occasions for the way in which one reacts to them depending on one's latent
tendencies. Besides the 5 external objects, there is also the "internal object" or
mind-objects, that if one fixates on would further reinforce the latent tendencies.

Further, it helps to look at the Nyanaponika/Bodhi selected translation of Anguttara
(Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, Walnut Creek: Altamira, 1999:34 f) = Text 2 (A
1.2.1-10), where they cross-refer to Text 37 (A 3.68).

We can alread see that the Anguttara is a fascinating and useful book for study.

Sukhi.

Piya