Hello Paul,
> Karati1 (p. 196) [cp. Sk. kṛntati] to cut, injure, hurt; in
"karato
> kârayato chindato chedâpayato . . ." D I.52=M I.516; S III.208.
Well, well, I completely missed that in PED! This meaning is not
given in Cone, and that's where I prefer to first lookup something
(when it starts with A-K). Curious, too, that Thanissaro translates
it as "acting" instead of "harming", though I agree with you that
harming makes more sense in context, and I am planning to change my
translation accordingly.
> > Walshe in his translation interprets it this
> > way too.
> I'm not a big fan of Walshe's Diigha. I find it unnecessarily
> awkward and free.
Walshe's translation isn't perfect, but I think it's quite good overall.
Thanks again for your useful input.
With metta, John
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I'm very delighted to get your response - and to get confirmation
> that
> > others on this list are actually doing these Warder exercises
> too! ;-)
>
> lol! When I first joined this group I thought Warder's Book would be
> the focus of everyones' attention, oh well:) Maybe we need a
> new "beginners' forum" where silly thoughts and questions about Pali
> can be posted. I hope I can say I'm doing my share:)
>
>
> > Third, I'm not sure where you get the interpretation that "karato"
> > means "cut, injure, hurt". I think it means "for the doer",
> dative of
> > "karant" (one who does).
>
> I got this right out of the PED, for what it's worth:
>
> Karati1 (p. 196) [cp. Sk. kṛntati] to cut, injure, hurt; in
"karato
> kârayato chindato chedâpayato . . ." D I.52=M I.516; S III.208.
>
>
> > Walshe in his translation interprets it this
> > way too.
>
> I'm not a big fan of Walshe's Diigha. I find it unnecessarily
> awkward and free. Compare, if you will, these two translations and
> tell me which you find closer to the Pali:
>
> Walshe:
> 'At this, Lord, Puura.na Kassapa said: "Your Majesty, by the doer or
> instigator of a thing, by one who cuts or causes to be cut, by one
> who burns or causes to be burnt, by one who causes grief and
> weariness, by one who agitates or causes agitation, who causes life
> to be taken or that which is not given to be taken, commits
> burglary, carries off booty, commits robbery, lies in ambush,
> commits adultery and tells lies, no evil is done."
>
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
> "When this was said, Purana Kassapa said to me, 'Great king, in
> acting or getting others to act, in mutilating or getting others to
> mutilate, in torturing or getting others to torture, in inflicting
> sorrow or in getting others to inflict sorrow, in tormenting or
> getting others to torment, in intimidating or getting others to
> intimidate, in taking life, taking what is not given, breaking into
> houses, plundering wealth, committing burglary, ambushing highways,
> committing adultery, speaking falsehood -- one does no evil."
>
> OK, so it's not the best example, but Thanissaro Bhikkhu's
> translation has the added benefit of being freely available at
> accesstoinsight.org.
>
>
>
> >I'd be happy to hear from those on the list more expert in Pali.
>
> Me too!
>
> > Fourth, "ekaagaarika" is consistently glossed as burglar or
> burglary,
> > see Warder p.173, PED, and Cone's "Dictionary of Pali Vol 1". And
> the
> > meaning fits more easily in the context of the passage
> than "turning
> > one into a householder", don't you think?
>
> I guess I was looking for some other interpretation precisely
> because "burglary" didn't seem to fit. We already have "breaking
> into houses". The only house I could think of where there was a
> break in without "burglary" was "Goldilocks and the Three Bears":)
>
> Again With Thanks & Metta,
> Paul
>
> Angels can fly because they take themselves so lightly.
> -G.K. Chesterton(?)
>
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
> > > > Pali - Every few days - [C237]
> > > > Warder - Exercise 21 (page 176)
> > > > Passages for Reading 1 (Part 1 of 4)
> > > >
> > > > eva.m vutte bhante Puura.no Kassapo ma.m etad avoca:
> > > > thus / said / venerable sir / Puura.na Kassapa / to me
> > > > / this / spoke
> > > > When this was said, venerable sir, Purana Kassapa said
> > > > to me:
> > >
> > > I had: ...the honorable Purana Kassapa said this to me.
> > > I think your translation is more correct. I picked up
> > > this obscure reference in the PED under "Bhante":
> > > "or with other oblique cases, as with nom. D I.179;
> > > DhA I.62. with gen. D I.179."
> > > This led me to think of "bhante" as a title, i.e. in the
> nominative.
> > >
> > > > karoto kho mahaaraaja kaarayato chindato chedaapayato
> > > > pacato paacayato socayato socaapayato kilamayato
> > > > kilamaapayato phandayato phandaapayato
> > > > by the doer / indeed / great king / by one who causes
> > > > to be done / by one who cuts / by one who causes to be
> > > > cut / by one who burns / by one who causes to be burnt
> > > > / by one who brings grief / by one who causes one to
> > > > bring grief / by one who makes weary / by one who
> > > > causes one to make weary / by one who makes tremble /
> > > > by one who causes one to make tremble
> > > > "Your majesty, by the doer or instigator of something,
> > > > by one who cuts, burns, brings grief, makes weary, or
> > > > causes terror, or instigates others to do likewise;
> > >
> > > The text has "karato" as the first word instead of "karoto".
> > > "Karato" meaning "cut, injure, hurt" ? This gave me:
> > >
> > > "To injure, Great King, to cause (it) to be done, to cut, to
> cause
> > > to be cut, to torture, to cause to be tortured, to grieve, to
> cause
> > > weariness, to quiver, to cause to quiver...
> > >
> > > > paa.nam atipaataapayato adinna.m aadiyato sandhi.m
> > > > chindato nillopa.m harato ekaagaarika.m karoto
> > > > paripanthe ti.t.thato paradaara.m gacchato musaa
> > > > bha.nato, karoto na kariiyati paapa.m.
> > > > living being / by one who causes to kill / not given /
> > > > by one who causes to take / breach / by one who cuts /
> > > > plunder / by one who carries off / burglary / by the
> > > > doer / in ambush / by one who stands / to another's
> > > > wife / by one who goes / falsely / by one who speaks /
> > > > by the doer / not / one would do / evil
> > > > by one who causes killing, or who breaks and enters in
> > > > order to steal, or carries off plunder, or commits
> > > > burglary, or lies in ambush, or commits adultery, or
> > > > speaks falsely; by the doer of all these no evil is
> > > > committed.
> > >
> > > ...to cause life to be destroyed, to take that which is not
> given,
> > > to break into a house, to take plunder, to turn into a
> householder
> > > (?), to stand in ambush, to approach the wife of another, to
> speak
> > > falsely, by so doing evil is not done."
> > >
> > > "ekaagaarika.m karoto" This is a confusing bit. Literally, I'm
> > > guessing "to turn (one) into (one) having a house".
> > > Perhaps this is a reference to causing a monk to commit one of
> the
> > > four offenses that would cause him or her to disrobe.
> > >
> > > Perhaps some help from the experts!
> > >
> > > THanks again John for taking on this difficult project.
> > >
> > > Mettena,
> > > Paul