--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I'm very delighted to get your response - and to get confirmation
that
> others on this list are actually doing these Warder exercises
too! ;-)
lol! When I first joined this group I thought Warder's Book would be
the focus of everyones' attention, oh well:) Maybe we need a
new "beginners' forum" where silly thoughts and questions about Pali
can be posted. I hope I can say I'm doing my share:)
> Third, I'm not sure where you get the interpretation that "karato"
> means "cut, injure, hurt". I think it means "for the doer",
dative of
> "karant" (one who does).
I got this right out of the PED, for what it's worth:
Karati1 (p. 196) [cp. Sk. kṛntati] to cut, injure, hurt; in "karato
kârayato chindato chedâpayato . . ." D I.52=M I.516; S III.208.
> Walshe in his translation interprets it this
> way too.
I'm not a big fan of Walshe's Diigha. I find it unnecessarily
awkward and free. Compare, if you will, these two translations and
tell me which you find closer to the Pali:
Walshe:
'At this, Lord, Puura.na Kassapa said: "Your Majesty, by the doer or
instigator of a thing, by one who cuts or causes to be cut, by one
who burns or causes to be burnt, by one who causes grief and
weariness, by one who agitates or causes agitation, who causes life
to be taken or that which is not given to be taken, commits
burglary, carries off booty, commits robbery, lies in ambush,
commits adultery and tells lies, no evil is done."
Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
"When this was said, Purana Kassapa said to me, 'Great king, in
acting or getting others to act, in mutilating or getting others to
mutilate, in torturing or getting others to torture, in inflicting
sorrow or in getting others to inflict sorrow, in tormenting or
getting others to torment, in intimidating or getting others to
intimidate, in taking life, taking what is not given, breaking into
houses, plundering wealth, committing burglary, ambushing highways,
committing adultery, speaking falsehood -- one does no evil."
OK, so it's not the best example, but Thanissaro Bhikkhu's
translation has the added benefit of being freely available at
accesstoinsight.org.
>I'd be happy to hear from those on the list more expert in Pali.
Me too!
> Fourth, "ekaagaarika" is consistently glossed as burglar or
burglary,
> see Warder p.173, PED, and Cone's "Dictionary of Pali Vol 1". And
the
> meaning fits more easily in the context of the passage
than "turning
> one into a householder", don't you think?
I guess I was looking for some other interpretation precisely
because "burglary" didn't seem to fit. We already have "breaking
into houses". The only house I could think of where there was a
break in without "burglary" was "Goldilocks and the Three Bears":)
Again With Thanks & Metta,
Paul
Angels can fly because they take themselves so lightly.
-G.K. Chesterton(?)
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
> > > Pali - Every few days - [C237]
> > > Warder - Exercise 21 (page 176)
> > > Passages for Reading 1 (Part 1 of 4)
> > >
> > > eva.m vutte bhante Puura.no Kassapo ma.m etad avoca:
> > > thus / said / venerable sir / Puura.na Kassapa / to me
> > > / this / spoke
> > > When this was said, venerable sir, Purana Kassapa said
> > > to me:
> >
> > I had: ...the honorable Purana Kassapa said this to me.
> > I think your translation is more correct. I picked up
> > this obscure reference in the PED under "Bhante":
> > "or with other oblique cases, as with nom. D I.179;
> > DhA I.62. with gen. D I.179."
> > This led me to think of "bhante" as a title, i.e. in the
nominative.
> >
> > > karoto kho mahaaraaja kaarayato chindato chedaapayato
> > > pacato paacayato socayato socaapayato kilamayato
> > > kilamaapayato phandayato phandaapayato
> > > by the doer / indeed / great king / by one who causes
> > > to be done / by one who cuts / by one who causes to be
> > > cut / by one who burns / by one who causes to be burnt
> > > / by one who brings grief / by one who causes one to
> > > bring grief / by one who makes weary / by one who
> > > causes one to make weary / by one who makes tremble /
> > > by one who causes one to make tremble
> > > "Your majesty, by the doer or instigator of something,
> > > by one who cuts, burns, brings grief, makes weary, or
> > > causes terror, or instigates others to do likewise;
> >
> > The text has "karato" as the first word instead of "karoto".
> > "Karato" meaning "cut, injure, hurt" ? This gave me:
> >
> > "To injure, Great King, to cause (it) to be done, to cut, to
cause
> > to be cut, to torture, to cause to be tortured, to grieve, to
cause
> > weariness, to quiver, to cause to quiver...
> >
> > > paa.nam atipaataapayato adinna.m aadiyato sandhi.m
> > > chindato nillopa.m harato ekaagaarika.m karoto
> > > paripanthe ti.t.thato paradaara.m gacchato musaa
> > > bha.nato, karoto na kariiyati paapa.m.
> > > living being / by one who causes to kill / not given /
> > > by one who causes to take / breach / by one who cuts /
> > > plunder / by one who carries off / burglary / by the
> > > doer / in ambush / by one who stands / to another's
> > > wife / by one who goes / falsely / by one who speaks /
> > > by the doer / not / one would do / evil
> > > by one who causes killing, or who breaks and enters in
> > > order to steal, or carries off plunder, or commits
> > > burglary, or lies in ambush, or commits adultery, or
> > > speaks falsely; by the doer of all these no evil is
> > > committed.
> >
> > ...to cause life to be destroyed, to take that which is not
given,
> > to break into a house, to take plunder, to turn into a
householder
> > (?), to stand in ambush, to approach the wife of another, to
speak
> > falsely, by so doing evil is not done."
> >
> > "ekaagaarika.m karoto" This is a confusing bit. Literally, I'm
> > guessing "to turn (one) into (one) having a house".
> > Perhaps this is a reference to causing a monk to commit one of
the
> > four offenses that would cause him or her to disrobe.
> >
> > Perhaps some help from the experts!
> >
> > THanks again John for taking on this difficult project.
> >
> > Mettena,
> > Paul