Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,
Thank you very much.
op 08-03-2005 04:49 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

> I think perception fits best here...

N: I compare now the PTS translations of vitakka: sense-desire-thinking, I
am inclined to: thinking with sense desire.
Evenso, as to saññaa: perception with sense-desire, etc. Not: perception of
sense-desire. The citta experiences a pleasant object, and then the
accompanying vitakka and saññaa also experience it. And, if there is wrong
attention, ayoniso manasikaara: they experience this object with
sense-desire.
To circumvent problems in translation the solution could be: perception
with... I believe we should think of an object that is experienced either in
the unwholesome way or in the wholesome way. That is the message of the
sutta, as I see it.

Bhante: Agreeing with Stephen that byaapaada may be a precursor to
vihi.msa, I

> think that byaapaada must not be so much to do with ill-will as simple
> aversion....
> Byaapaada is one of the five hindrances, and as such has nothing to do
> with outward expression of malice - normally we get away with using
> "ill-will" because we mean anger, but ill-will really means will to
> cause ill, not just anger. This my own idea, how I see byaapaada to
> be different from vihi.msa, the latter having more to do with coarse,
> outwardly-displayed defilements.

N: Dosa has many shades and degrees. The choice of words will be personal
and also it depends on the context.
Byaapaada: as a hindrance it is obstructive to samatha. But it is also one
of the three akusala kamma patha through mind. Expositor (Ch V, 101, p.
133):< That which destroys welfare and happiness is ill-will. It has the
characteristic mark of the mental fault of injury to others.> There is a
thought of harming.

Bhante: This is going by my teachers, who say there are three grades of
defilements - coarse outward ones that are countered by siila, moderate ones
(the five hindrances) that are

> countered by samadhi, and fine ones (seven anusaya) that are countered
> by pa~n~naa.

N: That is very good, all according to the Abhidhamma and the Co. Also in
the Co to the Vinaya, in the Bahiranidana. Medium kilesa (yaang khlaang) are
arising with akusala cittas and the anusayas condition their arising. There
are more akusala cetasikas arising with them than the five hindrances: also
the anusaya of maana and of ditthi, wrong view, condition the arising of
akusala cittas with these kilesas.

>
> Here is AN 6.11.05
>
> Comments:
>
> 1) Okay, if sa~n~naa caused problems, please explain to me "dhatu",
> here translated simply as element. But, I am reluctant to use it... I
> would rather use "nature", except it might be confused with "dhamma".
> Please comment.

N: Dhaatu is practically the same as dhamma: a word derivation is: dharati:
it bears its own characteristic. Dhaatu and dhammo are both used in this
sutta.
However, dhaatu, element, is a great reminder to see realities as non-self.
We think of the whole of the body, of a person, of a situation, but these
can be analysed into impersonal elements. M. 10 uses the simile of the
butcher who cuts up a cow and then one does not see that there is a cow.
Explained in Vis. XI, 30.
In many suttas the Buddha speaks about the dhatus (M. III, 115). Realities
are classified as elements in many different ways. This leads to detachment,
this helps siila. When less involved in what others say or do, or in
situations, it helps to refrain from wrong and idle speech. Sound is only an
element, not the voice of a person. He may speak disagreeable words, but we
can learn to see only elements.
I quote what I wrote before:
<Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the
Mahaarahulovaadasutta:
'pa.thavii-dhaatuyaa nibbindati, pa.thaviidhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.
One is disenchanted with the earth element and (so) becomes dispassionate
towards it.'>
Kaamadhaatu and the other akusala elements may arise, but it helps to see
them as only conditioned, impersonal elements. Then one will be less
overwhelmed by them. There may be conditions to cultivate nekkhammadhaattu
etc. and also these are non-self, impersonal elements. Paññaa sees the
benefit of nekkhammadhaatu etc. and this is a condition for their increase.
With respect,
Nina.

> A'nguttaranikaayo
> Chakkanipaatapaa.li>
> 11. Tikavaggo>
> 5. Dhaatusutta.m>
> "Tayome, bhikkhave, dhammaa. Katame tayo? Kaamadhaatu,
> byaapaadadhaatu, vihi.msaadhaatu. Ime kho, bhikkhave, tayo dhammaa.