Dear Stephen,

Thank you for your insight. I am by no means a Pali expert, so I
appreciate your comments.

> I still think your problems with byaapaada and vihimsa are linked to
> the way
> you want to translate sa~n~na and you are having to redefine these
> two to
> retain a dubious (in this context) translation of sa~n~na.
> "Perception" is
> by no means the generally accepted translation -- Tilmann Vetter has
> a
> useful discussion about the term in his book on the five khandhas,
> where he
> says "...the often used translation "perception" is misleading ..."
> (p24).
> Also see the relevent entry in Edgerton's BHS Dictionary (which also
> rejects
> the "perception" translation), where a large number of meanings are
> distinguished, amongst which these are noteworthy:
>
> 1. notion, conception, idea, thought
> 2. interest in, inclination to, purposeful thought towards ...
> 3. impression in the mind

Stubborn as I am, I think I disagree with these translations...

1. is what I would think of as vitakka or dhamma in various places.
2. this has more to do with sankhaara
3. I am not an expert on abhidhamma, but this sounds like phassa or
sankhaara, depending on how one defines "impression".

Please see "The Path of Purification", XIV, 81, along with the
footnotes (page 506 in my edition). "and whatever has the
characteristic of perceiving, all taken together, as the perception
aggregate" and the footnote says this: "characteristic of perceiving
means that it has as its characteristic the perceiving of an object
classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending, of it by
arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so
on."

Also, please see the Girimananda Sutta (AN 10.07.10) with ten kinds of
sa~n~naa. I prefer perception for all of them, because it has to do
with one's perception of the world. Doesn't it also fit with the
translation of "memory" as in sa~n~naa khandha? Recognition of
something as something is one's perception of it, like a rope as a
snake... for example, if you perceive the five khandhas as permanent,
this is niccasa~n~naa. I could be mislead here, of course.

> In the case of the sutta you have translated, one of the renderings
> in no 2
> above would seem to fit best.

The Path of Purification, on the same page as quoted above, says this
about sankhaara, there translated as "formations": "forming is
accumulating, or it is contriving by becoming interested." This is
why I think that number two would not fit with sa~n~naa here, it would
fit with sankhaara, or perhaps cetana.

> If you want to retain your "perception with hatred" etc, what
> exactly do you
> think this means ?

I understand that sa~n~naa always takes an object, here either a
pleasant or unpleasant object at the six sense doors. In this case,
one perceives the object as desirable "kaamasa~n~naa", inimical
"byaapaadasa~n~naa", or worthy of violence "vihi.msasa~n~naa"

This as opposed to "*vitakka", which I take to be actually thinking
about this object: "how will I get it?"=kaamavitakka, "how will I be
free from it?"=byaapaadavitakka, "how will I harm
it?"="vihi.msavitakka"

It is worth studying further, but I need more proof from you that it
should not be translated as I have. Sorry to be stubborn.

> Best wishes,
> Stephen Hodge

May you always be happy,

Yuttadhammo