Venerable Bhante Sujato, dear Geoff,
that is wonderful, Bhante.
I repeat the text:

Katama.m viparinaamasuñña.m
jaata.m ruupa.m sabhaavena suñña.m,
vigata.m ruupa.m viparinatañ c'eva suññañ ca

op 21-02-2005 00:19 schreef Bhante Sujato op sujato@...:
. For the

> first question, we might say more idiomatically in English, how is
> change void?, or:
>
> In what sense is change empty?
>
> I see no problem in retaining the literal instrumental usage in the
> second line. Nanamoli keeps 'born' as the literal rendering
> of 'jaata', which is right but obscure; the meaning is 'presently
> arisen':

N: The co states: <jaata.m ruupa.m: ruupa that has arisen. >
Bhante: Materiality that is presently arisen is empty by its own nature
N: I heard of many debates on sabhava (in dhamma study group yahoo), and
therefore. like you, I am inclined to translate it as 'own nature', or its
own distinctive nature. We can also say: its own distinctive characteristic.
In the Visuddhimagga it is translated by individual essence, but I feel
that such translations cause misunderstandings. I do not like essence.

Bhante: The last line perhaps needs to be rendered a little more

> idiomatically. Here it is obvious that 'viparinata', rendered
> by 'changed', really means 'ceased':
>
> Materiality that has disappeared is both changed and empty.

N: vigata.m ruupa.m viparinatañ c'eva suññañ ca
Ven. Nanamoli adds for vigata: disappeared.
Co. adds: changeability. <changeability by decay and falling away>. The
changeability appears of the rupa that is present. This cannot be said of
past rupa, it states.
As I understand, when rupa has fallen away it is empty of changeability.

I wrote something before about the characteristics of ruupa that may be of
interest:
<There are four characteristics that are inherent in all rúpas. These
characteristics have been classified as different rúpas, the lakkhana rúpas
(lakkhana means characteristic), which are the following:

arising or origination (upacaya)
continuity or development (santati)
decay or ageing (jaraaa)
falling away or impermanence (aniccataa)

These four lakkha.na rúpas are rúpas without their own distinct nature,
asabhåava rúpas, but they are themselves characteristics inherent in all
rúpas. These four characteristics are different: the arising of rúpa, its
development, its decay and its falling away.
Origination, upacaya rúpa, and continuity, santati rúpa, are characteristics
indicating the moments rúpa has arisen but not yet fallen away, whereas
decay, jaratåa rúpa, indicates the moment close to its falling away and
impermanence, aniccatåa rúpa, the moment of its falling away.>
When I read viparinaama, I am inclined to think of the very short moment of
ruupa that it is present, because then it is already close to its falling
away.

Geoff: I'm also curious about the relationship between the terms sunna and
rittaka. Are they synonyms? Do they hint at different connotations?

N: ritta hattha: empty fist. I am thinking of the Co to the
Satipa.t.thaanasutta, where it is explained that dhammas are anattaa. When
you open a fist, there is nothing there.
Majjhima NIkaaya III, from sutta 121 on, there is a whole vagga:
suññatavagga. The meaning is anattaa.
Here in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga different meanings are given and the long Co
is difficult reading. At the end it explains about the emptiness of lokiya
dhammas and nibbaana which are empty. As to lokiya dhammas: empty of
lastingness, beauty, sukha, self. The nature of impermanence is empty of
sukha, happiness. Nibbaana is empty of self. Since it is asankhata it is
empty of sankhaara. As to all dhammas, conditioned and uncondiitoned, they
are empty of self, because there is no person, no self.
I do not render all.
Nina.