Re: (AN IV, IV, 1) Four Wheels

Venerable Bhante Dhammanando,
It is most kind of you to go over my translation, thank you very much.
Pa.nidhi and nara are still problems.
op 25-06-2004 19:38 schreef dhammanando@... op
dhammanando@...:

>
> No. Cattaarimani cakkaani = cattaari + imaani cakkaani.
> 'These four wheels'.
>
> 'Cattaarimaani' is used in all the Suttas in the A`nguttara in
> which the listed items are of neuter gender. If they are
> masculine then 'cattaarome' (= cattaaro + ime) will be used. If
> they are feminine then it will be 'catasso imaa'.

N: I am glad you mention it, thank you.

>
>> attasammaapa.nidhi: this is often translated as : perfect
>> adjustment of oneself, or self control. The Commentary gives:
>> aspiration or decision for all that is wholesome. So I chose
>> rather aspiration.
>

Bhante: Are you sure you are reading the right part of the Commentary? I

> don't see anything in it about aspiration. The A`nguttara
> Commentary to the Cakka Sutta explains the term as 'attano sammaa
> .thapana.m' -- 'the right/perfect establishing of oneself'. It
> then gives the example of a person who had formerly been without
> faith but who then abandons faithlessness and establishes himself
> in faith.

N: Yes, my Thai Co gives the same. I wanted to convey this by right
aspiration. The PED and Ven. Buddhadatta dict give for pa.nidhi
(pa.nidhahati): aspiration, determination. I thought of aspiration for all
kusala. I hesitated here and also thought of determination, resolve. I know
I left out atta, but the term itself is no problem for me. Just a pronoun.
I agree with all your comments. I think of the avarage reader and would like
him to have more confidence in kusala through this sutta I find very
important. Often they just read it but overlook the meaning.
I asked the average reader (my husband), and concluded: to be rightly
established. The substantivum establishment is not so clear. Please, would
you help me? Further on you suggest: to be well established in the right
course, and this I like better. Avoiding the awkward substantivum.
The Thai has: tang ju, which is similar to establish.
I quoted the <Atthasaalinii> (Expositor p. 100):
<A person thinking: 'I ought to do meritorious deeds,' has his mind
'determined' [niyamita] for moral acts>

>> Patiruupe vase dese,
>> If one lives in a suitable place
>> ariya/mitta/karo siyaa;
>> and has noble friendship;
>

Bhante: I would translate:

>
> "A man should live in a suitable place
> And be a befriender of noble ones."
>
>
> The word 'nara' is the subject of the entire verse and in English
> would be best inserted right at the beginning.
>

Bhante: 'Vase' is optative 'vaseyya', shortened to fit the metre. Since

> there is no 'if' in the verse, we should take verb's mood as
> expressing either a strong recommendation (atisagge-sattamii) or
> a mild imperative (pese-sattamii). Likewise with 'siyaa'.

N: Thank you, I had trouble with the verse form. I like: should.

Bh: (Thai translation: N?r?chon pheung y?u nai th?n th?i m?. / Pheung

> tham aar?y?chon h?i pen m?t).

N: my iMac does not give the symbols.

>
>> sammaa/pa.nidhi/sampanno,
>> and has right aspiration
>> pubbe pu~n~nakato naro;
>> and, as a hero, has formerly done meritorious deeds;
>
> "Well-established in the right course,
> Having formerly performed deeds of merit,"
>
> Usually 'man' will suffice to translate 'nara'. 'Hero' is only
> called for in reference to brahminical myths, or in verses of a
> devotional character where the 'nara' is the Buddha or one of
> his arahant disciples.

N: I thought of the Bodhisatta. He is called nara. I also think for us: we
have to be like a hero to develop the Path. What about this: Like a hero one
should....at the beginning. It could be: Like a man, but it sounds strange.
Hero: not letting go, not making as halt halfway, not be discouraged,
persevering like a hero.
I still have a problem, since, as you say, it should be in the beginning, is
the subject of the whole. A man should live in a suitable place, or: a hero,
this is strange here. For the first two wheels a man or a hero are both
strange. The Atthasaalinii uses: <a person thinks...> But I do not know the
Pali here. For the last two wheels the hero fits. Please, could you help me?
I see for nara in Ven. Buddhadatta dict. a human being. nara viira: a hero.
PED nara: strong or valiant. A man does not imply enough. Or we have to
accept that in english there is loss of the force present in the Pali.

>> dha~n~na.m dhana.m yaso kitti,
>> grain, wealth, honour, fame,
>> sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii>ti.
>> and all this happiness will be the result for him.
>
> "Grain, wealth, honour, fame, and happiness
> Come to him in abundance."
>
> 'Adhivattati' (to overwhelm) is a transitive verb. But the only
> possible object of the verb is 'nara'. But since the earlier
> occurrence of 'nara' is in the nominative, 'eta.m' (the masculine
> accusative of eso) has been inserted to make the connection.

N: with many thanks,
respectfully,
Nina.