--- Norman Joseph Smith <josmith.1@...> wrote:

> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:
>
> cut

This message, my reply to Robert, got lost in trasit, but now found and
added to and forwarded. :-)

> > > > As well as that it is not surprising to me, thinking the
> > > > physiological interpretaion of the three insight knowledges
> > > > [tevijjaa] is a later teaching, that these ideas are usually
> > found
> > > > in Nikaayan texts that most scholars take as later texts, i.e.
> > > > Anguttara and Diigha as opposed to Majjhima and Samyutta.
> > > > ==================
> > >
> > >
> >
> > > Anyway I have copies of the Majjhima and Samyutta and will see
> if
> > > there are any references to past/future lives.
> > > RobertK
> > =======
> > Dear jou,
>
> Hi Robert and all.
>
> Hope you are well and happy.
>
> > I had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
> > references to rebirth.
> > I trust these examples suffice:
> > Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
> > "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass away as
> > human beings are reborn
> > as human beings. but numerous are those who,
> > when they pass away are reborn in hell.."
>
> M v 474 = M 56.102
>
> Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye manussaa cutaa
> manussesu paccaajaayanti; atha kho eteva bahutaraa sattaa ye
> manussaa cutaa niraye paccaajaayanti.
>
> This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of to
> be born AND to be RE-born.
>
> > Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
> > here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech and
> > mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in the
> > company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
>
> S iii 251 = S 31.3
>
> Ayam. kho, bhikkhu, hetu, ayam. paccayo, yena midhekacco kaayassa
> bhedaa param. mara.naa muulagandhe adhivatthaanam. devaanam.
> sahabyatam. upapajjati.
>
> This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of to
> be born AND to be RE-born.
>
> You can choose which meaning you want to follow and only stick to
> that without testing the other, if you wish. I did that, but
> eventually thought that would not seem to be to follow the
> idea, 'the truth does not suffer from investigation'. Not testing a
> different option, especially after someone says the other is more
> immediately beneficial, would also not indicate a willingness to
> learn, which the Buddha said is necessary to progress.
>
> Of course the different meanings you choose will affect what you
> think the goal is.

The most damning evidence for the multiple life and rebirth theory would
seem to be the positive version of Dependent Origination, which shows
how the gradual path IS Dependent Orignation. Therefore "When one sees
the Dhamma [process of liberation], one sees Dependent Origination" and
vice versa. See furthest left hand column of the following table
compared to other teaching of the Buddha [a study method he gave for his
teaching]:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html. It is
no wonder that those that promote the gross/physiological or the
impractical psychological understanding of Dependent Origination do not
know of, or do not speak much of the positive version of D.O.

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