--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:

> Norman,

Hi Frank

Hope you are well and happy.

Greeting and well wishing would be the practice of mettaa. I find
none in your opening or closing remarks, to your loss.

> What exactly does this have to do with pali?

On the home page of this group one finds this:

Main discussion topics:
1. Tipitaka and sutta study
2. Pali language and literature
3. Theravada Buddhism
4. Samatha and Vipassana meditation
5. Sutta study tools and methodology
6. Tipitaka translation theory and practice

Pali is only one of the allowable and agreed topics.

> There's numerous references throughout the samyutta
> and majjhima where the topic of rebirth is addressed.

I accept that possibility, but are you relying on translation? I
have found that numerous times English has RE-brith and previous
lives when the Paali text does not.

The second point would be, even if you were talking about the Paali,
where do you factor in that records of texts are impermanent -
change over time? It is easy to say "of course they are", but to
identify specific examples is another thing and if one does, of
course those that cling to those texts as truth are going to react
from their clinging.

They want the one making the claim to prove their interpretation
wrong. I am not interested in proving my or your interpretation. I
am interested in finding the Buddha's. To do this I want to first
clarify what the texts SAY. I want to hold off on my interpretation,
NOT continue to assume, i.e. apply my interpretation, no matter
where I got it from, or how many follow it. When it comes to
delusion, majority rules.

> If you're so interested in finding textual support for
> your view in a buddhism without literal rebirth,

I am not concerned with any form of Buddhism or my interpretation. I
am just interested in looking at the records of what the Buddha
said. I have given the text used most to justify the common
interpretation and shown how it does not mention previous "lives"
or "RE-birth". Maybe you did not see it, but one thing is, you have
not agreed, even though it is quite clear. To do so, one would have
to see that one was applying one's interpretation. Then one could
ask, where did that interpretation come from? Why do I believe it?
Have I tested it in experience in accordance with the Kalaama Sutta?

> the
> onus is on you to diligently go through, find the
> references, and provide a compelling argument for each
> case to support your assertion

I have looked into it for myself. I have diligently gone through,
and looked carefully at the references supposedly about previous
lives and RE-birth and found the majority are mistranslations. You
can reject this if you wish, or investigate for yourself.

The difference between you and me on this point may be that I have
investigated it textually and tested BOTH interpretations in
experience and find the interpretation I have come up with helps me
more to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion. I have followed the
Buddha's advice of making a thorough investigation and testing in
experience. That is I have relied on myself and taken refuge in the
Dhamma.

> - especially, why would
> the Buddha, who was brilliant and known for denouncing
> harmful wrong views and giving pragmatic explanations
> of the utmost clarity, in this case give so many
> explanations where it lends itself so naturally to a
> literal rebirth interpretation. If there was no
> literal rebirth, the buddha would have listed that as
> pernicious wrong view #1 or #2, in the 62 wrong views
> in the digha nikaya sutta#1(?).

If you don't want to test an interpretations that someone is saying
has brought more benefit than the common one, then just continue in
your theorising without me.

> The Buddha is not
> known for teaching in a way that would confuse and
> easily mislead,

Indeed. He gave definitions of terms he used and he stuck to them.
Without knowing and applying the definitions, one misinterprets the
Buddha's teaching. The first definition is the First Noble Truth,
the DEFINITION of dukkha according to the Buddha. NOT just
that "Dukkha exists" [dukkham. hoti] or that "life is dukkha"
[jiivitam. dukkham.].

> and rebirth being a prevalent view at
> the time, he certainly would have devoted a fair
> amount effort into squashing that view. So it's not
> just a matter of addressing the cases where the
> buddha's discourse implies rebirth,

according to your and many others' interpretation

> but the glaring
> omission of why he doesn't correct such a prevalent
> allegedly wrong view [of literal rebirth].

Well according to my study he did.

> The evidence and interpretation you give in your
> initial query is weak.

And you have not admitted that the the text I supplied, does NOT
mention "previous lives" or "rebirth".

> You're going to have to make a
> stronger and more detailed case before anyone would
> take you seriously.

So you say, but you are wrong. Others do take me [read my points]
seriously, but you may have something unkind to think, or say about
them surely.

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