From: Ong Teng Kee
Message: 1603
Date: 2003-01-11
----- Original Message -----
From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:04:26 -0000
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:
> > Dear Rob,
> > All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was
> asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said
> sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit
> hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
> ______________
> Dear Teng kee,
> Ledi sayadaw was a great teacher but controversial in some areas
> (such as his disagreements with a few parts of the commentary to the
> Abhidhammathasangaha). I did a search and found some statements by
> him:
> 1.
> http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/T/Thynn/LivMedLivIn/livme
> d_2.htm
> The Path of Sukkhavipassaka
> Samatha practices such as anapanasati meditations on the breath are
> not particularly necessary on the Path of Sukkhavipassaka. Together
> with observance of the three sila (moral precepts), panna (wisdom)
> can be developed. When the two panna factors develop, the three
> samadhi factors are also developed concomitantly. This is known as
> pañcangika magga. Herein Five Path factors are together integratedly
> developed. In conjunction with the three sila factors, they make up
> the Noble Eightfold Path.
> Practicing this Path will also relieve mental afflictions. To
> practice this path requires a high level of intelligence, effort and
> perseverance.""Ledi Sayadaw (Magganga Dipani)
> His last statement here is perhaps what leads you to think he said
> sukkhavipassaka was the hardest way. But maybe we could read it that
> all ways take great intelligence, effort and perseverance. Also
> someone that has the extraordinarily great parami to attain mastery
> of jhana and use this as the basis might have an easier task when we
> consider this life only. As I mentioned in my earlier post that
> doesn't take account of the many lives they had spent developing
> skills in both vipassana and samatha.
> ________
>
>
> 2:http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6h.htm
> "I shall now show the way of sotapatti-magga in lokuttara-magganga.
> It should be remembered that this book is aimed at the lowest of the
> ariya, namely the 'bon-sin-san' sukkhavipassaka-sotapanna.""
> Here we see that sukkhavipassaka according to ledi is the lowest
> type. If it is the lowest (as the texts and Ledi said) why should it
> be considered harder?
>
> 3:http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/livmed2a.htm#LivingMed
> "It is not entirely necessary that in vipassana practice one achieve
> a tranquil state through samatha practices. What is crucial is pañña
> paramita in the individual (the inherent quality of intelligence). If
> a person has the necessary pañña paramita and is ready for it, he or
> she can attain enlightenment even by just listening to a discourse.
> Hence, based on a person's pañña paramita, enlightenment can be
> achieved while living a household life and contemplating anicca
> (impermanence) within or without his or her own self, within or
> without his or her own home life." Ledi Sayadaw (Vipassana Dipani)
>
> ____
>
> Teng:> You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able
> to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to
> decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly
> from buddha but insight is.Think about this sutta com but we do not
> have tika on it.
>
> ________
> Robert: Yes I have read this. I read it as descriptive of the decline
> of the sasana. In the early years so many Patisambhidapatta arahants,
> a thousand years later none or almost none (but still sukkhavipassaka
> arahants )(see Chulavaggatthakatha) .
>
> _______
>
> Teng: > the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross
> the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim
> across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We
> need to
> > use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the
> harder way.
> _____
> All kusala , including jhana, is helpful for crossing samsara. If one
> can develop jhana and vipassana, great. But if we have the idea that
> first we must master jhana before embarking on vipassana we may
> neglect a great chance as it is only during a Buddha sasana that the
> words of anatta, the five khandas are heard. jhana can be developed
> outside the sasana as well.
> ________
>
> > Teng: The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya
> now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )
> because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not
> possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are
> people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
> _______
> Yes some vipassayanika have had experience of jhana (but not all).
> The nivarana are overcome at moments of insight (tadanga nirodha) ,
> that is why the Buddha included the nivarana (hindrances) as part of
> the objects of contemplation in the satipatthana sutta.
> The commentary to the sutta:
> "Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances(nivarana) is
> the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu
> who lays hold of the hindrances should be
> understood.""""http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDhamma.htm#Doubt
>
>
> > Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong
> because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.
>
> _______
> The petakopadesa (at least the one the pali text society uses) is
> unfortunately hopelessly corrupt. I see no problems with the Netti
> though.
> I appreciate very much this discussion as I think it quite a crucial
> one.
> RobertK
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
> > Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
> > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com
> >
> > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:
> > > > dear Rob,
> > > > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
> > > sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
> > > samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will
> be
> > > easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try
> attain
> > > nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
> > > even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It
> can
> > > sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes
> when
> > > we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first
> jhana,second
> > > jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment
> in
> > > the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
> > > __________
> > >
> > > Dear Teng kee,
> > > When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he
> mean
> > > that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
> > > The Netti-pakarana (587)
> > > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati,
> majjhindriyassa
> > > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
> > > vipassanam upadassati.
> > > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
> > > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
> > > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
> > > blunt
> > > faculties."
> > >
> > > In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
> > > mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
> > >
> > > I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
> > > master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
> > > attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't
> count
> > > as mastery).
> > >
> > >
> > > > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in
> com
> > > but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
> > > sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by
> upacara /jhana in
> > > dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara
> as
> > > mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they
> are
> > > samathayanika too but just upacara.
> > >
> > > This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it
> would
> > > be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to
> study
> > > what you write on it.
> > > RobertK
> > > > mail.com/lavalife
> > >
> > >
> > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
> digest or web only.
> > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
> > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
> > > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
> > > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
> > http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
> >
> > Meet Singles
> > http://corp.mail.com/lavalife
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
> [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
> [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
> [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
> [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--
_______________________________________________
Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
Meet Singles
http://corp.mail.com/lavalife