--- In
Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:
> Dear Rob,
> All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was
asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said
sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit
hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
______________
Dear Teng kee,
Ledi sayadaw was a great teacher but controversial in some areas
(such as his disagreements with a few parts of the commentary to the
Abhidhammathasangaha). I did a search and found some statements by
him:
1.
http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/T/Thynn/LivMedLivIn/livme
d_2.htm
The Path of Sukkhavipassaka
Samatha practices such as anapanasati meditations on the breath are
not particularly necessary on the Path of Sukkhavipassaka. Together
with observance of the three sila (moral precepts), panna (wisdom)
can be developed. When the two panna factors develop, the three
samadhi factors are also developed concomitantly. This is known as
pañcangika magga. Herein Five Path factors are together integratedly
developed. In conjunction with the three sila factors, they make up
the Noble Eightfold Path.
Practicing this Path will also relieve mental afflictions. To
practice this path requires a high level of intelligence, effort and
perseverance.""Ledi Sayadaw (Magganga Dipani)
His last statement here is perhaps what leads you to think he said
sukkhavipassaka was the hardest way. But maybe we could read it that
all ways take great intelligence, effort and perseverance. Also
someone that has the extraordinarily great parami to attain mastery
of jhana and use this as the basis might have an easier task when we
consider this life only. As I mentioned in my earlier post that
doesn't take account of the many lives they had spent developing
skills in both vipassana and samatha.
________
2:
http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6h.htm
"I shall now show the way of sotapatti-magga in lokuttara-magganga.
It should be remembered that this book is aimed at the lowest of the
ariya, namely the 'bon-sin-san' sukkhavipassaka-sotapanna.""
Here we see that sukkhavipassaka according to ledi is the lowest
type. If it is the lowest (as the texts and Ledi said) why should it
be considered harder?
3:
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/livmed2a.htm#LivingMed
"It is not entirely necessary that in vipassana practice one achieve
a tranquil state through samatha practices. What is crucial is pañña
paramita in the individual (the inherent quality of intelligence). If
a person has the necessary pañña paramita and is ready for it, he or
she can attain enlightenment even by just listening to a discourse.
Hence, based on a person's pañña paramita, enlightenment can be
achieved while living a household life and contemplating anicca
(impermanence) within or without his or her own self, within or
without his or her own home life." Ledi Sayadaw (Vipassana Dipani)
____
Teng:> You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able
to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to
decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly
from buddha but insight is.Think about this sutta com but we do not
have tika on it.
________
Robert: Yes I have read this. I read it as descriptive of the decline
of the sasana. In the early years so many Patisambhidapatta arahants,
a thousand years later none or almost none (but still sukkhavipassaka
arahants )(see Chulavaggatthakatha) .
_______
Teng: > the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross
the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim
across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We
need to
> use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the
harder way.
_____
All kusala , including jhana, is helpful for crossing samsara. If one
can develop jhana and vipassana, great. But if we have the idea that
first we must master jhana before embarking on vipassana we may
neglect a great chance as it is only during a Buddha sasana that the
words of anatta, the five khandas are heard. jhana can be developed
outside the sasana as well.
________
> Teng: The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya
now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )
because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not
possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are
people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
_______
Yes some vipassayanika have had experience of jhana (but not all).
The nivarana are overcome at moments of insight (tadanga nirodha) ,
that is why the Buddha included the nivarana (hindrances) as part of
the objects of contemplation in the satipatthana sutta.
The commentary to the sutta:
"Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances(nivarana) is
the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu
who lays hold of the hindrances should be
understood.""""
http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDhamma.htm#Doubt
> Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong
because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.
_______
The petakopadesa (at least the one the pali text society uses) is
unfortunately hopelessly corrupt. I see no problems with the Netti
though.
I appreciate very much this discussion as I think it quite a crucial
one.
RobertK
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com
>
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:
> > > dear Rob,
> > > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
> > sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
> > samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will
be
> > easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try
attain
> > nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
> > even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It
can
> > sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes
when
> > we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first
jhana,second
> > jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment
in
> > the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
> > __________
> >
> > Dear Teng kee,
> > When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he
mean
> > that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
> > The Netti-pakarana (587)
> > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati,
majjhindriyassa
> > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
> > vipassanam upadassati.
> > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
> > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
> > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
> > blunt
> > faculties."
> >
> > In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
> > mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
> >
> > I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
> > master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
> > attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't
count
> > as mastery).
> >
> >
> > > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in
com
> > but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
> > sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by
upacara /jhana in
> > dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara
as
> > mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they
are
> > samathayanika too but just upacara.
> >
> > This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it
would
> > be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to
study
> > what you write on it.
> > RobertK
> > > mail.com/lavalife
> >
> >
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