---
Thanks for all this Robert.I will study it carefully. I am certainly
very interested in your notes - but you might need to add some
explanantions
One thing that occurs to me when I study the latinate phrases is why
are they used at all. Why not use the pali grammatical terms . For
those of us who didn't study latin most of the words are new so it is
just as easy to learn the pali equivalents. Is it because most of the
Pali readers such as Warder use them - and so we need them to
comprehend these texts- or are the English terms more precise or
convenient?
Robert
In Pali@..., Robert Eddison <robedd@...> wrote:
> Robert Kirkpatrick:
>
> >Dear Frank,
> >What I find worrying is that I (seem to) understand this better
than
> >I do ablatives, feminine demonstrative pronouns etc. used to
describe
> >Pali.
> >Robert
> >I would really appreciate it if Robert Eddison or Dimitry could
give
> >us all hints about the english Metalanguage of Pali grammar
(please?)
> >when discussing points.
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> I am prepared to do so when the terms in question refer to
grammatical
> items that have no parallel in the English language or which are
concerned
> with more advanced topics. If I ever start writing about bahubbiihi
and
> dvanda compounds, or methods of forming primary and secondary
derivatives
> from verbal roots, I will certainly explain the terms I'm using.
>
> If the members are interested, I should also be willing to start
posting to
> the list the grammar notes that I made while studying the
Saddaniiti with
> Sayadaw Dhammananda. The Saddaniiti, by the 13th century Burmese
grammarian
> Aggava.msa, is considered the most thorough of the old Pali
grammars. Much
> of its content afaik is not available in English even in summary
form.
>
> However, regarding elementary terms such as 'noun', 'adjective', and
> even 'feminine demonstrative pronoun' I tend to assume that those
taking
> part in this list have either already acquired the tools of the
trade, or,
> are prepared to make the effort to do so. So...
>
> For those unfamiliar with grammatical jargon I would recommend the
website:
> http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/definitions.htm
>
> Although it is concerned with English grammar, nevertheless if you
follow
> all the links you will find easy to understand explanations of most
of the
> terms commonly used when analysing a Pali passage, e.g.the meanings
of the
> different parts of speech, the difference between personal,
demonstrative,
> reflexive, intensive, relative, interrogative and indefinite
pronouns, the
> types of participle etc.
>
> The main thing lacking is an account of the grammatical cases which
are
> found in Pali but not in English (e.g. it won't tell you
what 'ablative'
> means).
>
> To fill in this gap you might start with...
>
> http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/sanskrit/lessons/lesson9/lesson9.html
>
> which gives very short and simple definitions of the eight cases
(it's
> actually from a Sanskrit course, but that's okay as Sanskrit has
the same
> eight cases as Pali). Then you could move on to...
>
> http://www.vipassana.info/lesson25.htm
>
> which goes into more detail, covering the more important ways in
which each
> case is used. This is from Ven. Naarada's "Elementary Pali Course".
>
> All of the above will not take more than two or three hours and
ought to
> provide an adequate basis for understanding most of what is
discussed on
> this list.
>
> On a final note, though the latinate grammatical terms may appear
> intimidating at first sight, more often than not the ideas that
these terms
> represent are very simple. Take the case of 'feminine instrumental
> demonstrative pronoun'. This is shorthand for a demonstrative
pronoun
> representing a noun that is of feminine gender and is inflected in
the
> instrumental case. So...
>
> A *pronoun* is a word used in place of a noun that has already been
> mentioned or is assumed. The noun replaced is referred to as the
> *antecedent*. In the sentence "Devadatta likes snakes. He eats THEM
for
> breakfast," the antecedent noun 'Devadatta' is replaced by the
pronoun
> 'them'.
>
> If a pronoun is *demonstrative* it means that it points out or
indicates
> persons or things. The main ones in English
are 'this', 'that', 'these',
> and 'those'.
> "THESE are the snakes Devadatta prefers, not THOSE."
>
> If the noun replaced by the pronoun is *feminine*, then the pronoun
is
> feminine too. One can't give an example in English, since the
English words
> 'this' and 'that' don't provide any indication of gender.
>
> If we say 'BY this', 'WITH this' or 'BY MEANS OF this' then it is
said that
> we are using a demonstrative pronoun in the *instrumental* case.
>
> To conclude, here is an example of a feminine instrumental
demonstrative
> pronoun:
>
> Atthi kho pha.niisuupo naama sudhaa. *Taaya* so Devadatto atimatta.m
> bhu~njitvaa piivaro ahosi.
>
> "There is a delicacy called 'cobra curry'; *by means of this*
Devadatta,
> eating too much, grew fat."
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Robert