Richard Wordingham wrote:

--- In Nostratica@yahoogroups.com,
"H.M. Hubey" <hubeyh@...> wrote:
> The final result as far as I can
see is:
>
> If the words are IE, then there
is a strong case for making Turkic
IE.
> If on the other hand people
insist Turkic is not IE, then the
words are
> not IE.
There is another explanation,
namely that they have a
*discernible* common ancestor, a
descendant of Proto-Nostratic.

Yes, but even if they have a common ancestor
an ancestor has descendents, and descendants
have their own words.

> In any case, there is a case for
putting Turkic in the vicinity of
IE in
> ancient
> times. It was, as far as present
knowledge allows, either somewhere
in the
> Mideast (especially Gamkrelidze
and Ivanov are correct) or in the
diamond
> shaped area in the steppes; south
end is Turkmenistan, north is the
Urals,
> the west is Black Sea steppes,
and the east, somewhere in Central
Asia.
> Except for minor change e.g. put
Slavic homeland slightly more to
the
> east, and make Tokharian a recent
accident of some sorts, the diamond
also
> splits the satem and centum
branches.
No, Baltic, Albanian, Dacian and
Thracian are satem languages to its
West.

That would be likely late move like Russian but it could
be wrong.

>
> But again, there has to be
general principles that have to be
applied
> consistently.
>
> There are only two of them:
>
> 1. recurrent sound change
> 2. some words are not borrowable;
e.g. Swadesh 100 list, Yakhontov 35
list
> etc are formalization of this
concept.
Have you looked at the meanings on
the 100 word list?  'Egg' and
'skin' are Norse, 'give' is more
Norse than Old English, 'mountain'
is Romance.  I will allow that the
English word for 'person' is 'man'.
Richard.

I have the list someplace, but I am not sure what
you are getting at. Are you talking about Kessler's book?

-End-of-Message--------
>
> If these postulates are not
believed then there is no HL (hist
ling). If
> HL is
> valid and is based on the two
postulates, then the postulates are
> believed then they
> have to applied, and applied
consistently. No tweaking
constantly.
>
>
> richard.wordingham@... wrote:
>
> > It's plausible that Turkic *bir
'one', *barmaq 'finger' and *ber
> > 'give' are related.  An analogy
to the relationship of *barmaq and
> > *ber is the English verb 'to
hand'.  However, if the route were
> > through the meaning 'hold'
(perhaps originally only by the
fingers),
> > PIE *bHer 'carry' might also be
related.
> >
> > However, even if *per had the
semantic evolution 'one' > 'first'
> 'in
> > front' (any examples for the
second shift?), that does not mean
that
> > *per is not PIE, though it
would argue that the Nostratic form
meant
> > 'one'.  Given the variation in
> > the PIE forms for 'one',
perhaps it was a
> > cluster of forms that had just
taken on the meaning.
> >
> > However, I think that the
primary meaning
> > of Semitic *ra?s is 'head', and
that it has no connection with the
> > _cardinal_ 'one'.
> >
> > Incidentally, I haven't heard
anyone on the list argue that
everything
> > derives from IE: on the
contrary, I have heard it seriously
argued
> > that some PIE words and even
's' mobile are (para-)Semitic.
> >
> > Richard.
> >
> > null
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group,
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is
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> >
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.
>
>
> --
> M. Hubey
> -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
> The only difference between
humans and machines is that humans
> can be created by unskilled
labor. Arthur C. Clarke
>
> /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/
http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hube
y


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-- 
M. Hubey
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
The only difference between humans and machines is that humans
can be created by unskilled labor. Arthur C. Clarke

/\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey