The final result as far as I can see is:

If the words are IE, then there is a strong case for making Turkic IE.
If on the other hand people insist Turkic is not IE, then the words are not IE.

In any case, there is a case for putting Turkic in the vicinity of IE in ancient
times. It was, as far as present knowledge allows, either somewhere in the
Mideast (especially Gamkrelidze and Ivanov are correct) or in the diamond
shaped area in the steppes; south end is Turkmenistan, north is the Urals,
the west is Black Sea steppes, and the east, somewhere in Central Asia.
Except for minor change e.g. put Slavic homeland slightly more to the
east, and make Tokharian a recent accident of some sorts, the diamond also
splits the satem and centum branches.

But again, there has to be general principles that have to be applied consistently.

There are only two of them:

1. recurrent sound change
2. some words are not borrowable; e.g. Swadesh 100 list, Yakhontov 35 list
etc are formalization of this concept.

If these postulates are not believed then there is no HL (hist ling). If HL is
valid and is based on the two postulates, then the postulates are believed then they
have to applied, and applied consistently. No tweaking constantly.


richard.wordingham@... wrote:

It's plausible that Turkic *bir 'one', *barmaq 'finger' and *ber 'give' are related.  An analogy to the relationship of *barmaq and *ber is the English verb 'to hand'.  However, if the route were through the meaning 'hold' (perhaps originally only by the fingers), PIE *bHer 'carry' might also be related.

However, even if *per had the semantic evolution 'one' > 'first' > 'in front' (any examples for the second shift?), that does not mean that *per is not PIE, though it would argue that the Nostratic form meant 'one'.  Given the variation in
the PIE forms for 'one', perhaps it was a
cluster of forms that had just taken on the meaning.

However, I think that the primary meaning
of Semitic *ra?s is 'head', and that it has no connection with the _cardinal_ 'one'.

Incidentally, I haven't heard anyone on the list argue that everything derives from IE: on the contrary, I have heard it seriously argued that some PIE words and even 's' mobile are (para-)Semitic.

Richard.

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