Re: AA and IE

Alex, Glen

Regarding the common source of the Dravidian and Altaic *kori and its
related cognates, I feel that rather than a Dravidian-Altaic
connection I feel that the source of both may in fact have been
Elamite. This would certainly be the most economical argument, as
sheep were introduced into both India and Central Asia from Iran, and
it would be expected that a loan word from Elamite would be carried
into the languages from this common source.

Unfortunately, I have no Elamite dictionary and can find nothing on
the web.

Thoughts anyone?

Regards

John

--- In nostratic@..., "Glen Gordon" <glengordon01@...> wrote:
>
> The debate continues between Alexander and I:
> >>I estimate that Dravidian is seperated from Altaic and
IndoEuropean by
> >>about 7000 years. Dravidian and AfroAsiatic
> >>are seperated by 10,000 years. The least amount of pleading
> >>would involve a comparison between IndoEuropean and Altaic,
> >>a seperation of only 5000 years.
> >
> >I wonder what a technique do you use to obtain these figures?
> >Is it a formula, or an algorithm, or just a complex expert
estimation?
> >Please share it, it's really interesting.
>
> Well, even if we put aside the numbers, Altaic is certainly closer
> to IE than to Dravidian or to AA. This requires linguistic knowledge
> of some kind and cannot be replaced with "algorithms" or "formulae".
> Linguistics, like sociology or psychology, is too "human" and
> unpredictable to be calculated at. The dates I arrive at, therefore,
> are simply estimations based on how I understand the spread of
> Nostratic and the internal relationships of the various Nostratic
> language groups.
>
> My understanding of Nostratic is brought about by combining the
> likeliest current theories I have come across together to form
> a larger theoretical picture, a la Occam's Razor. By studying a
> little, we will notice clearly that it is more generally accepted
> that IE and Altaic are more closely related to each other than
> IE is to AA. For example, it's easier to see the similarities
> between IE and Altaic pronouns much easier than between IE and AA.
>
>
> >However I would be surprised if there were many ManchuTungusic
> >sheep-words there. Practically all the existing now languages of
> >this group [...] are spoken by folks who live in taiga, practice
> >reindeer-breeding, and normally never see a sheep during the whole
> >life (before XIX cent.). Why should they keep a word, if there is
> >no object to designate?
>
> True enough, although it looks here as though one is using a lack
> of evidence as a proof.
>
>
> >>In fact, afaik, I don't recall Proto-Altaic nomads doing any
> >>farming.
> >[A]
> >I think PROTO-Altaic people were not nomads.
>
> I don't think I'm following what you're saying. What were they
> before they were pastoral nomads and where in the world do you
> place these people geographically? Are you saying that they were
> once Central Asian farmers but had lost their way of life much
> like refugees from the lost continent of Mu? :P
>
>
> >>Where did they get the lambs?
> >
> >[...] Yes, you are right - Altaic people could get lambs only
there, where
> >sheep was domesticated and where all the Nostratic
> >folks origin from - at the Near East. [...]
> >In the 3rd millennium BC in a culture on the Western edge of the
>Chinese
> >civilization [...] sheep and cattle appeared! There were
> >no wild progenitors of these animals there.
>
> Then you must accept that these terms are loanwords from another
> language.
>
>
> >Whom could be those people who brought lambs ultimately from the
> >Near East to China?
> >I can't find any serious answer but ALTAIC-speaking ones.
>
> Really? That's not a serious enough answer for me since you're
> forgetting about all the north Eurasian languages that Altaic is
> closely related to. (??!)
>
> As far as I am concerned, this _is_ a loanword, and it comes from
> some southern language that Altaic or later languages were in
> contact with in the past.
>
> If we are to accept Altaic *kur'i, why couldn't it come indirectly
> from Dravidian via intermediate languages? Something like the
> following could have happened somewhere between 5000 and 3000 BCE:
>
> Dravidian *kuri > LanguageX *kuri > Altaic *kur'i
>
> Hmm. Gee, that's getting me titulated. What language could it be?
> Burushaski? Does anybody have a Burushaski dictionary?
>
> Anyways, just some more thoughts to ponder.
>
>
> - love gLeN
>
>
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