Thanks, Brian, for help on «oerinn» and «annar». They were definitely in the curly category.
Following up on: Synir hans láta verpa haug virðulegan eftir hann.
(MM&HP) His sons had a stately mound built for him
(Rob) His sons caused (to)
raise a worthy mound for him.
(Grace) His sons had a
splendid mound thrown up in his honour.
(Alan) His sons caused to
raise a mound worthy of him.
> > > I'm with Rob and Grace here:
<virðulegan> modifies <haug>,
> > > so it's 'a splendid/worthy mound', and <eftir hann> is 'to
thereof).
> > > his memory' (or any reasonable paraphrase
>.> This may be a dialect difference, but to me 'raise a mound worthy of
>.> him' and 'raise a splendid mound in his memory' mean rather different
> > things: one could do the former for a living person. The mound is
> > splendid, and it is raised in his memory; those are separate
> > characteristics.
I understand your argument better now but I’m still not totally convinced that my meaning is necessarily different and want to try and explain myself further.
To me, in this context, «for him» as translated by MM&HP and Rob could only read either as if the mound was built as a container to hold him, or for his benefit, Either way, I see these as being “rather more different things” to in memory / remembrance of him than my worthy of him.. Does this therefore make these translations inaccurate in your view? In fact one could equally raise a worthy / stately mound for every one of these reasons (including to the memory of someone departed) with respect to a living person.
It may be a cultural difference, but in my neck of the woods we tend not to bury the living J and, really, it is simply the context here that indicates that we are referring to someone bereft of life. My argument (totally without scholarly foundation I admit J) is that it is in such contexts as this (and where the words are inscribed on runic stones etc) that the words «eptir hann» acquire the extended meaning of to the memory of him. Without context they simply mean after him, and in different contexts they can acquire different extended meanings. Further, it is my proposition that when «eptir hann» is combined with «verðuligr» to form the adjectival phrase «verðuligr eptir hann», the object thus described becomes something worthy (to exist, to stand, to be raised) after him (ie to his memory after he has departed) and because, in the context, we know he is dead, simply worthy of him.
Cheers
Alan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: norse_course@yahoogroups.com [mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Brian M. Scott
> Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2011 4:28 PM
> To: rob13567
> Subject: Re: [norse_course] Laxdaela Saga 27 End + Beginning 28 - Rob's
> Translation
>
> > Þeim fannst fátt um og þótti ærið mikið við haft.
>
> > They were little pleased concerning (this) and thought it
> > sufficient made a great display. (???) (Z. hafa 14 - h.
> > mikit (lítit) við, to make a great (little) display)
>
> > They were little pleased about (it) and (it) seemed more
> > than enough.
>
> > Little about (this) pleased (finnast, Z9) them and (it)
> > seemed much (a great quantity) had been made sufficient
> > (oerinn? + hafa mikit við, Z14 ?)
>
> It's definitely the neuter of <œrinn>. According to
> Fritner, it can mean not just 'sufficient', but 'so much
> that one could not desire more', which could mean 'verging
> on too much'. Moreover, he gives <hölzti fjölmennr> as a
> variant reading of <œrit fjölmennr>, and <hölzti> = <helzti>
> is 'far too'. Putting these together with the idiom that
> Rob noted: '... and thought far too great a display made'.
> Grace's version probably captures the sense pretty well.
>
> > Þessi hefir önnur veisla fjölmennust verið á Íslandi en sú
> > önnur er Hjaltasynir gerðu erfi eftir föður sinn.
>
> > This has(?) another feast been well attended in Iceland
> > and the other which Hjalt's sons did honor with a funeral
> > feast in memory of their father.
>
> > There has been another well attended feast in Iceland and
> > that other funeral feast which Hjalti’s sons made in their
> > father’s honour.
>
> > This feast has been one of the (two) most-numerous-with
> > people in Iceland (and) that other one (of the two) when
> > (the) sons of Hjalti made a funeral-feast for (in honour
> > of) their father (?).
>
> After a good bit of digging through the entry for <annarr>
> in Fritzner, I managed to verify that <annarr ... en> can be
> 'next best to, second-best to'; a straightforward example is
> <Ívarr var annarr mestr höfðingi í Borgarfirði en Þórsteinn>
> 'Í. was [the] second greatest chief in Borgarfjörð after
> Þ.'. This appears to be how the first <önnur> is being
> used; the second <önnur>, on the other hand, seems to be
> simply 'other': 'This has been the second-best-attended
> feast in Iceland after that other [feast] that Hjalt's sons
> gave ['made'] in their father's memory' (or simply 'after
> their father').
>
> > Þessi veisla var hin skörulegsta að öllu og fengu þeir
> > bræður mikinn sóma og var Ólafur mest fyrirmaður.
>
> > This feast was the most magnificent of all and the
> > brothers got much honor and Olaf was most a person who
> > excels others.
>
> > This feast was the most imposing of all and those brothers
> > got great honour and Olaf was the greatest excelling all
> > others.
>
> > This feast was the most magnificent in-all (respects) and
> > they, (the) brothers received great honour and Ólafr was
> > (the) greatest person-excelling-all-others.
>
> Rob & Grace: <at öllu> 'in all respects' can be found in
> Zoëga s.v. <allr> (5).
>
> > Ólafur gekk til móts við báða bræður sína um fégjafir.
>
> > Olaf went to meet with both his brothers concerning
> > gifts-of-value(?).
>
> > Olaf went to meet with both his brothers regarding the
> > gifts.
>
> > Ólafr went in common (equal shares, see mót, Z4) with both
> > his brothers concerning the gifts-of-money.
>
> I can't decide whether <til móts við báða brœður> is to be
> understood as 'equalled each brother' or as 'equalled both
> brothers combined', i.e., whether he paid a third of the
> costs of the gifts, or half; at least one editor has adopted
> the second interpretation, though M&P seem to favor the
> first.
>
> > Þorleikur tekur þessu vel og sagði sem satt er að þetta er
> > sæmilega boðið.
>
> > Thorleik received this well and said as truth is that this
> > is the honorable offer.
>
> > Thorleik received this well and said that truly this is an
> > honourable offer.
>
> > Þorleikr takes (present tense) this well and said that
> > (it) is true that this is honourably offered.
>
> So far as I can see, two grammatically distinct readings
> of <þetta er sæmilega boðið> are possible, though both give
> the sentence essentially the same meaning. One is Alan's
> reading, which makes <boðið> a past participle (of <bjóða>)
> in a passive construction; this works, because <boðið> is
> neut. nom. sing. to match the subject <þetta>. On this
> reading <sæmilega> is the adverb 'honorably'. The other is
> Rob's reading (and almost Grace's), which makes <boðið> the
> noun <boð> with the definite article. This also works:
> <boð> is neuter, so the article is correct, and <sæmilega>
> has the right ending for the neuter weak declension of the
> adjective <sæmilegur> 'honorable'. I don't see any purely
> grammatical basis for choosing between 'this is honorably
> offered' and 'this is the honorable offer'.
>
> > Þeir Bolli og Kjartan voru mjög jafngamlir.
> > They, Bolli and Kjartan were very-much the same age(?).
> > They Bolli and Kjartan were almost the same age.
> > They, Bolli and Kjartan, were very similar-aged.
>
> Rob: See <mjök> (3) 'almost, very nearly' in Zoëga;
> <jafngamall> 'of the same age' isn't in Zoëga, but it is in
> CV.
>
> > Enn áttu þau fleiri börn.
> > Yet, they had several children.
> > They had yet more children.
> > Yet, they had other children.
>
> I think that Grace's version is comes closest, but <fleiri>
> is probably a bit stronger than just 'more', since it's the
> comparative of <margr> 'many'.
>
> > Son þeirra hét Steinþór og Halldór, Helgi, og Höskuldur
> > hét hinn yngsti son Ólafs.
>
> > Their son was named Steinthor, also Halldor, Helgi, and
> > Hoskuld was the name of Olaf's youngest son. [Do I
> > understand this correctly that both instances of "son" are
> > in the singular?]
>
> > Their sons were called Steinthor, Halldaor and Helgi. And
> > Hoskuld was the name of the youngest son of Olaf’s.
>
> > Their son (sg as far as I can tell) was-called Steinþór
> > and Halldór, Helgi and Höskuldr was-called the youngest
> > son of Ólafr.
>
> <Son> is indeed singular, as is confirmed by the singular
> verb <hét>. (Similarly with <dóttir> in the next sentence,
> which I've omitted.)
>
> > Öll voru börn þeirra mannvæn er þau óxu upp.
>
> > All their children were promising when they grew up.
>
> > All those children were promising when they grew up.
>
> > Their children were all promising when they were-growing
> > up.
>
> I'm with Alan here, for two reasons. First, it makes much
> better sense to speak of someone as promising *before* he or
> she reaches adulthood. Secondly, if 'when they were grown
> up' could more clearly be expressed by <er þau váru upp
> vaxnir>.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@...! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
> norse_course-digest@yahoogroups.com
> norse_course-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3448 - Release Date: 02/16/11