Heill Llama!

> > ON Rögnis reið is solid, but I'm not sure how old *karls vagninn

is;

> There might be some evidence that the 'vagn' part at least is old:

"Hvernig skal kenna himin? Svá at kalla hann ... land ... vagna
(Skáldspaparmál). In the plural because Ursa Minor was also thought
of as a wain? I guess Rögnir would be from PrN *Ragunîz, parallel to
Go. ragineis "governor", and related to ON 'regin'.

PrN *ragunijaz, I think - Sievers seems to be universal after a long
syllable or more that one. 'land vagna' - yes, either because there
is more than one stellar wain, or because the gods' wains are drawn
over the heaven, etc. Compare the Vedic mythology on the gods' wains
and horses, etc..

> > Yes, wain=wagon; Charles' (ON Karlamagnúsar, gen.) could be a

later confusion for *karls/carls?

> 'wain' is the native form inherited from Old English; wagon

(sometimes spelt waggon) was borrowed from Dutch in the 16th century.

I think English is best when inherited forms are used instead of the
imported ones, even if they are Germanic (the grey area...), as my
ear likes it ;) Would not then *Wodens wain be fine Modern English?

> Grimm cites a line from the Old Swedish Riming Chronicle where the

Wain is apparently related to Þórr: "Thor statt naken som ett barn,
siu stjernor i handen och Karlewagn" [
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/022_05.php ], [
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/stars.shtml ], but also says that "it
is Wôden stories in particular that are transferred to the Frankish
Charles." Maybe there were different ideas about who rides the
heavenly Wain in different parts of Scandinavia and the rest of
Germanic world?

ON folk would have strongly associated the wain with Þórr, no doubt.
But this hardly gets around the fact that other heavenly wains must
have been in use, and Óðinn could have a wain in addition to his 8-
legged steed, which is his usual transport in ON tradition. ON Freyr
has a ship and a swine, etc.. Vedic mythology is replete with many a
form of godly transport, often for one and the same god, as well as
over-lapping mythology about gods, etc.. Unless the Sun is thought
of as actually sitting on a horse, then she, too, ends up in a wain.
But here PrN petroglyphs picture the sun in a ship, which suggests
that the ON has mythological variants, as in the Veda. My thinking
is simply that as rögnis reið occurs, and would seem inherited, then
the logical conclusion would be that this is Óðinn's wain, whether
he rides in it at all or just leaves it parked. One reasons is that
Óðinn is called rögni in Vellekla, Hyndluljóð, etc., a short form of
rögnir, which also occurs, and would be a natural name for Óðinn.

> 'Reiðar týr' seems to be a kenning for Þórr, not attested in the

surviving poetry [http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/lp/r1.html ],
although he's associated with the word 'hógreið' (gentle chariot) in
Haustlöng.

Hialmar Falk (Kristiania, 1924) lists it as an Óðins heiti, based on
Snorri. Of course, as with a number of Óðins heiti, the situation is
complicated, and in this case, it is not used by this god about
himself in extant sources. But Snorri (in Heimskringla) attributes
the ship Skíðblaðnir to Óðinn, and it is generally agreed that this
ship belongs to Freyr, as is suggested in Snorra Edda - so, there is
no doubt that a term like reiðar týr could have been transfered, as
it would, indeed, seem more applicable to Þórr in ON tradition, as
he is most strongly associated with a wain therein. And about heiti
in general, we should bare in mind that certain heiti are inherited
titles from the heathen religion, of great antiquity, while others
are skaldic and play on the ancient inherited terminolgy - thus, the
god Óðinn is, for instance, vagna runni, etc.. The many names formed
with suffixes no longer active after PrN, and frozen compounds which
were no longer formable in ON due to language change, etc. have PrN
or earlier origin. An example of a frozen compound is Fornölvir, ie.
Fornölvér (Óðinn), some PrN forms which could lay behind it:

*sa forna alawîhaz - the ancient, all-holy one
*sa forna aluwîhaz - the ancient, ale-holy one
*fornaz ala/aluwîhaz or *forna/ala/aluwîhaz, etc..

reiðartýr could be an old one, even if it doen't occur in poetry, as
it seems simple and self-explanatory enough to have been on the lips
of the common folk. Also, unless a given ON poet actually is known
to have been a heathen, one should always be careful about the use
of terms for ON gods, etc. in poetry, as the tradition moved from
being a craft performed by language-artisans/poets who actaully were
heathens, and respectful of their faith's traditions, to being just
plain plagiarism, and often outright abuse, of another tradition, as
it had a superior poetic tradition when it came to heiti. Morning
coffee now, more later ;)

-K

> I always assumed that the connection with Charlemagne was a later
> confusion too, but the OED comments on the English name: "The name
> appears to arise out of the verbal association of the star-name
> Arcturus with Arturus or Arthur, and the legendary association of
> Arthur and Charlemagne; so that what was originally the wain of
> Arcturus or Boötes (`Boötes' golden wain' Pope), became at length

the

> wain of Carl or Charlemagne. (The guess churl's or carle's wain has
> been made in ignorance of the history.)"
>
> How can they be so sure, I wonder? They might be right, but I

don't

> this this is really proven by the citations they give. The

earliest

> reference they offer which associatates it with Charlemagne, is

from

> 1398, 'Arcturus is comynly clepid in Englis Cherlemaynes wayne'
> (clepid = called).
>
> The oldest reference given by the OED is from 1000: "Arhcton hatte

an

> tungol on norð dæle, se hæfð seofon steorran and is gehaten
> septemtrio, þone hatað læwede menn Carleswæn." (There is a
> constellation in the north that has 7 stars and is called

septemtrio,

> which uneducated folk call Carl's Wain.)
>
> Richard Hinkley Allen mentions a slightly earlier reference, but
> doesn't quote it. Maybe this is the quote in Bosworth & Toller:
> "Carles wæn ne gæþ næfre adune under ðyssere eorþan swa swa oðre
> tunglan doþ." (Carl's Wain never goes down under this earth as

other

> constellations do.)
>
> http://beowulf.engl.uky.edu/cgi-bin/Bosworth-

Toller/ebind2html3.cgi/bosworth?seq=161

>
> And the constellations is mentioned much earlier still as 'wænes
> þisla' "the poles of the wain" (Metres of Boethius), and elsewhere,
> also just as 'þisl'.
>
> Allen: "Grimm cites Herwagen, probably the Horwagen of Bayer and

the

> Hurwagen of Caesius." Grimm also has a Swiss version Herra waga

(The

> Lord's Wain?) Or could Her- be a warlike connection to those names
> for Óðinn beginning Her-?
>
> Other historical variants: 5 Charlmons wayn, carle wensterre,
> carwaynesterre, Charelwayn, Charlewayn, 6 Charle wane, 6-7 Charles
> wayne or waine, 7 Charles or Carol's wain(e, Charlemagne or Charles
> his wane, wain(e, Charle-waine, Charlmaigne Wain, 7- Charles's

Wain.

>
> 'charl' is a normal variant of 'churl' form Old English 'ceorl'.

For

> other examples of this sound change, compare 'dwarf' and the

obsolete

> 'dwerrow' from OE 'dweorg' / 'dweorh', and the doublet 'person' and
> 'parson'. But 'carl' is borrowed from the Scandinavian form, or in
> this case if the OED is right from Frankish, perhaps through Latin
> Carolus. The forms in the different Germanic languages go back to

two

> parallel versions of this word: karl- (ON karl, Fries. tzerl, OHG
> charlo) and kerl- (OE ceorl, Du. kerel, MnGerman kerl). *If* the

OED

> is mistaken though, then this late OE form 'Carles wæn' may well be
> due to Old Norse influence (cf. Campbell: Old English Grammar,

section

> 144 for the limits of "retraction" of /ea/ to /a/ in Northumbrian;

if

> I've understood this right, the form 'carl' would be exceptional

as a

> native OE development, even supposing Germanic *karlaz had survived
> there beside *kerlaz).
>
> LN
>