--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson"
<konrad_oddsson@...> wrote:

> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Eysteinn Bjornsson"

<eysteinn@> wrote:

>
> --- "akoddsson" wrote:
>
> Hávamál, its language and content
> Do you have Evans' edition?

Yes, and I like it, but my copy is currently in a box of paper-
copies of books in Álfaborgum, Grafarvogi ;)

> It has a brilliant introduction, containing a few real eye-

openers. One of my favourite pieces of academic writing:

> "We should not, then, be justified in thinking of Hávamál
> as a more or less mechanical stringing together of some
> half-dozen distinct poems; it would come nearer the truth
> to say that, in the text as we now have it, we can glimpse
> the half-submerged hulks of such poems."

Yes, see the post I just through up about the þulr's function before
I started reading this. It would have been recited in sections.

> "First, the Gnomic Poem has very little to say of the heroic:
> there are no references to feuds or to the duty of vengeance,
> and only the most casual and passing allusions to weapons and
> fighting. [...] Secondly, the ætt, the family, one's kinsmen,
> are barely mentioned at all [...] Conversely, much stress is
> laid on friendship. The dominant image in the Gnomic Poem,
> the implied recipient of the advice proffered, is that of the
> solitary, a man with no apparent attachments of family or
> kin, often travelling alone, playing no part in the social or
> political structure of the community ... Yet if, as has so
> often been believed, the poem is rooted in the world of the
> Norwegian smallholder, where the family lived on the ancestral
> farm from generation to generation, why does it simply ignore
> the ætt, so centrally present in the sagas and laws?

> Well, a few points. First, a section like the Gnomic one could

occur in any society from that time, even without reference to
family (but their are some - sunr es betri, bautaðar steinar
mentioned, etc.). I think this solitary image has more to do with
Óðinn presenting these verses as a traveller (at least in the gnomic
section). There is a group of folktales, for instance in the
Norwegian Asbjørnson & Moe collection (but others as well), where
characters like Jesus, Peter and other NT characters travel around
from farm to farm testing the folk's hospitality by not revealing
their identity, giving advice, etc.. Seems like an old tradition
(see also Óðinn in Heiðreks Saga, Grímnismál-context, etc.). Compare
also the Rauðskeggi character (Jón árnason, etc.) ;)

> And is
> it not also remarkable that there is no trace of the gradations
> of the class system of the Norwegian laws, with their konungr,
> jarl, hölðr, lendr maðr and so on, nor any trace either of
> superstition, of cult and ritual, of the gods who watched
> over the ancestral fields?

> Well, the Gnomic Hávamál would likely only have been addressed to

free-born persons without reference to class. Still, references to
it do occur (iarls yndi; þióðans barn; barni konungs, etc.etc.). I
think that the average, free-born householder was the audience for
Hávamál, in general, just as the average, free-born householder was
the audience for the monks' recitations of the buddha-dharma, hindu
priests' recitations of the scriptures, etc. - in fact, this is even
known to be true, and its still going on today. I can't see that the
Norse were exceptional in this respect. Of course, the was a caste-
system (codified in Rígsþula), like in every other IE tradition, or
any tradition for that matter. Interestingly enough, Proto-Norse
runic inscriptions confirm the role of the iarl as the rune-master,
as the erilaz is widely attested in the small extant corpus, being
called upon to engave runes ;) He would also, as in inscriptions,
have recited prayers/benedictions/chants on certain occasion (even
though his function was not primarily religious) to protect/benefit
his folk (times of war? - see for instance, Kragekul Spearshaft).
Regarding the above, hölðar and iarlar are both used in Hávamál. No
cult and ritual?...see betra es óbeðit an séi ofblótit, ..geiri
undaðr, etc.etc. If anything, earlier redactions of Hávamál would
have had even more overtly religious references, rather than less,
as these would be least likely to be remembered/written/quoted in a
Christian society. No gods? Well, the speaker (a God), is teaching
the men that he made about life, not explaining the inhabitants of
Ásgarðr, etc.. But lendr maðr is not mentioned, true. Still, I do
not see a point to the comments above, or what he is driving at.

> > To meet this difficulty, Sigurður
> > Nordal suggested that the poem mirrors, not the ancient world
> > of the small farmer, but the new world of the Viking Age where
> > men tore up their ancestral roots and abandoned their kin and
> > their home bound gods, and wandered at large over the northern
> > hemisphere, free-ranging equals, knowing no tie but that of
> > comradeship.

þurra skíða ok þakinna næfra, etc. Way too many refernces to the
traditional Scandinavian household, technology, nature, animals,
etc. for this to be true. Sigurðr, the source here, while a good
scholar, was also a rapid Icelandic nationalist (I've read much of
his work and my step-father knew him personally when he worked for
Landsbanki Íslands), which colours his work. A man of independence-
generation Iceland, he ignores things like oral tradition, heathen
tradition and wishes to see Icelandic poets (i.e. like himself)
high-brows, behind 'noble' things like Hávamál, in as much as this
is possible. Of course, like the guy or not, and from what I have
heard, I do like him (and I like his writing), Sigurðr is simply off
course here. Hávamál (nor Völuspá, behind which he could only see an
Icelandic 'poet', against all evidence) is not about nationalism.
Rather, it is the inheritance of the Norse as a whole, not just any
one modern, Christian nation, containing some of their descendants.
Rightly, it belongs to all of their physical descendants, as it was
the words of their ancestors' God, as they understood it. Thus, I
would mention again the HM quotes from the West Gautish Laws, as
well as internal, pre-Icelandic linguistic evidence, technology- and
nature-references, Eyvindr Skaldaspillr's use of HM, etc.etc.etc. to
argue against any such narrow-minded nationalism that wishes to see
Hávamál (or Völuspá, etc.) as the property of any one modern nation.
Attributing it to Norway won't do any good either, as Norway did not
exist as a single nation at that time, but was rather a group of
smaller, independent nations (like Rogaland, Raumaríki, etc.). Thus,
while the references (nature, society, etc.) in Hávamál do point to
Norway, as scholars (including FJ, etc.) affirm, this does not make
HM Norwegian either. In fact, the tribes in Sweden and Denmark would
also have had redactions of Hávamál. The present redaction is just
a chance survival rooted in some West Norse HM version(s) of old,
nothing more, nothing less. Still, it's as Danish as it's Icelandic,
as Swedish as Faroese or Norwegian, being Norse in the pre-christian
and pre-national sense. In fact, the Goths, too, would, no doubt,
have had a redaction of the saying of their God, *Wódans. Readers
can see how nice it flows in Gothic:

juggs was ik faúrþis
fôr ik áins samana
warþ ik þan wilþeis wigê
áudags þûhta mis (ik)
þanî ik anþarana fanþ
manna ist mans gaman

> Instead of the ætt, the frændr, we have the friend,
> the comrade: "with half a loaf and a titlted bowl I got myself
> a comrade, fekk ek mér félaga" says st. 52, using the word
> which occurs repeatedly in runic memorial for a comrade in the
> Viking Age ... Nordal's hypothesis does, it is true, entail
> some difficulties of its own.

No doubt ;) Sigurðr was smart, and a very good writer, but he got
blinded by nationalism on this point, biting him as hard in the end
as any other scholar who made the same mistake. Furthermore, he
wrote, and wrote well, for an Icelandic audience as a poet/story-
writer (this is, of course, entirely natural), as did JH (once in
poetry), whom never mixed nationalism and academia on such topics.
Men are personally different, live through different times, being
effected by different trends. But nationalism is a known killer of
good scholarship, regardless of colour.

> The travelling on which the Gnomic
> Poem lays so much stress is all inland, and much of it plainly
> on foot; only the rather obscure st. 74 contains references to
> journeying by ship, and even here it is almost certainly sailing
> in coastal fiords rather than ocean voyaging that is in question.
> Foreign travel, the life of the warrior, how to behave at the
> king's court: these are conspicuously absent. So it is not Viking
> life itself, in the strict sense, which the poem reflects, but the
> life of Norway in a period tinged by the individualism and the
> loosening of inherited sanctities that the Viking expansion
> brought in its train."

Location/national-ownership speculation, nothing more. Reflecting a
new Norwegian independence at the dawn of the viking age....sounds
like a romantic modern idea ;) Again, the wisdom sayings of the
Norse God Óðinn would have been passed on in various redactions, and
by various tribes, from very ancient times. Perhaps some of these
studiers of all things Norse should get their heads out of their
books and look at some other cultures, oral traditions, religions,
tribes, etc. for some clues. On this course, Norse is on topic, and
Óðinn is a Norse God, but we should not forget that he is also an
Old English God, an Langobardic God, a Gothic God, etc.. Now, with
respect to Norway, it might be a better question to ask if extant
Eddic material, like Hávamál, were from Rogaland, Hörðaland, etc.?
Why, because they, like Icelanders and Faraoese, called themselves
norroenir menn, not Norwegians (norðmenn) at this time, and that is
what the Danes called them (ketils þess norroena - in Danish viking
age runes). West Norse men were from a country (they were rygir,
hörðar, þroendir, íslendingar, þilir, etc.), but were collectively
just norroenir by default. So, I vote for burying national romatic
ideas about Hávamál for good. HM mentions cremation as its method
for disposing of the dead, on which pyre national romantic ideas of
this type also belong.

> Another recent monograph I recommend that you find is Ottar
> Grönvik's "Håvamål: Studier over verkets formelle oppbygning
> og dets religiöse innhold" (Det Norske Videnskaps-Akademi,
> Oslo, 1999). It should be easily available. It sets out a
> really interesting interpretation of the þulr and his relation
> to Odin - the purpose of the whole monograph is basically to
> clarify the meaning of stanza 138. Grönvik believes that this
> part of the poem should be read as uttered by the þulr (a
> priest of Odin), who has achieved a 'unio mystica' with his
> god.

I've read some of this guys books on Early Runic inscriptions, and
oh man, the stuff is far-out. Given that I've read entire books by
him that go out from a single inscription, the idea of a book by him
out from a single HM verse doesn't surprise me ;) That being said, I
do not think that a þulr was a priest, but a reciter, whose office
was just that - to recite the traditions - in an oral society (see
my previous post). The goði was the priest, tecnically speaking. I'm
a bit of a strait-forward simpleton, I'm afraid, pragmatic, focused
on functionality, etc. and not much for mystery-theories. But what
I'll do is check out the book next time I go to the library and read
it. But all scholars, be forewarned, mixing wierdness, nationalism,
spacey ideas, political views, etc. into your works of scholarship
and you'll lose me ;)

> > I think that it would be wise for us to lead a collective

process toward a superior, future redaction, making it available
online.

> > A lofty goal, indeed. A jörmun-task.

True, but so much of the work is already done - thanks to the likes
of FJ, etc.. Still, what is undone should be done, and I see it as
more of a responsibility than as just another task. I think that it
is owned to future men, whether we have the courage as individual
persons, or someone else, etc.. I don't see it as about personal
accreditation, but as about collective duty.

> > Raising the shoulders of giants... ;)

> Shrugging mightily, I dare say! Would Atlas shrugging
> be the equivalent of Þórr raising Jörmungandr's hump
> heavenwards?

> "Giant monsters staggered
> steep crags reverberated
> the ancient earth was all ashudder."

;) It was intended to be humourous, of course ;) The thing is, I
really look up to FJ (it's a personal thing, not academic), he is
one of the scholars I realy admire, so calling him a giant is not
hard for me to do. I'm sure you understand ;)

> > Ekki á sveitaböllum ennþá, en víst á ýmsum fundum um þióðlaga-
> > tónlist. Ég spilaði síðustu viku með íranskri konu, flutti ýmsa
> > slætti og kvað fornar vísur eftir tónum munngígju í G.

> Þú ert greinilega á réttum stað!

Já og nei - ýmislegt gott, ýmislegt slæmt. Svolítill einangraður...

> Ertu fluttur endanlega?
> Er Noregur þitt nýja óðal?

;) Ferr aftur til Íslands bráðum (fyrst um jólin og svá um sumarið
- vil festa kaup á húsnæði þar, en vil heldur vinna hér vegna hærri
launa. Það vilja margir, eins og þú veist. Vinn 40-60 tíma í viku og
reyni að spara, en allt er of dýrt! Þú kannt nú alla söguna ;)

> Blessaður alltaf,
> Eysteinn

Sömuleiðis, vinur.
Konráð

>