Hello -

I didn't get a copy of my original message from the list, but I'm assuming
it was distributed on the list to some extent. This is a subject of profound
fascination for me, although as I said, I haven't pursued research of it to
adequately be familiar with the state of knowledge that does exist.

>From: "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
>Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [norse_course] Re: Jawharp contra Wagner
>Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:08:26 -0000
>
>Heill Scott!
>
>--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Schroder"
><speculum_terra_incognito@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello -
> >
> > I play and record music and have had a fairly substantial
>curiosity on the subject of music in ON and its relationship to the
>performance of the material from that culture that is available to
>us. It should be noted that the number of references to Eddic or
>skaldic poetry in saga without musical accompaniment is certainly
>far more common than reference to performance that does feature
>music.
>
>There are almost no references to eddic material or it's performance
>in saga-literature. This is likely because such performances would
>no longer have occured after christianization, and thus be centuries
>older than an average saga-writers direct experience. One of the few
>references, that does occur, is found in the so-called Nornagests
>��ttr from a rescension of �lafs Saga Tryggvasonar. It is a type of
>missionary-story, where the king is visited by a guest, who turns
>out to be the norse god ��inn in disguise. The wise, story-telling
>guest 'sl� Gunnarsslag' for his listeners, which means that it was
>performed as music. This would be a piece of the eddic type. Indeed,
>Gunnarr himself, a Burgundian king, plays the harp with his toes in
>the norse tradition while he dies a snake-pit. Jordanes claims that
>the Goths played and sung their heroic songs. When �lafs guest 'sl�'
>a 'slag', we see two words from the same root, both used about the
>act of playing an instrument (Eng. slay/slew). 'slag' is a neuter
>synonym for masc. sl�ttr, and both mean a piece of music, something
>'slain'. The verb 'sl�' can also refer to the act of playing a
>musical instrument. In fact, traditional norse, solo musical pieces
>are still called sl�ttr, pl. sl�ttir (Mod.Norw.& Swed. sl�ttar). We
>do not know for certain what the norse called eddic material in
>general (Snorri Sturluson is thought to have applied the term Edda
>to his book about norse poetry, and the term Eddukv��i is modern),
>but a term used by Snorri (forn v�sindi) is certainly a candidate
>for ancient usage. Several titles of eddic pieces refer to song or
>chant, such as Gr�ttas�ngr and Gr�galdr, where s�ngr is song and
>galdr is chant (of a religious type - gala means to chant/sing).
>There is wide agreement that eddic material was performed/sung by
>the ancient norse, which is of course the topic of recontructing the
>music of such performances is such a hot topic. Aryan folk, such as
>the Indian Hindus and Zoroastrians, still preserve their ancient
>traditions of religious chant. For instance, Aryan priests intone
>verses (prayers, blessings, good wishes, etc.) according to a set,
>inherited tonal-system. Typically, in Hindu chant, the same three
>tones are used in standard chants, such as the daily G�yatra-mantra
>prayer (3 times each day at fixed times). Many consider that the
>norse were originally a non-christian folk, and that their religion
>was of the Aryan-type, rather than the Semitic or any other, and
>that a norse priest (ON go�i, Go./PN gudja) would have chanted after
>some such tonal-pattern as his Hindu equivalent, for instance. Of
>cource, chant would also have been performed by non-priests as well.
>In rimur, which is one of the surviving nordic musical tradtions,
>the poetry is sung/intoned in a way that is likely related to this
>ancient religious chant, but just how is hard to say.

Yes, I don't recall encountering reference to Eddic performance in saga.
There is fairly extensive reference to verse of other type being performed,
and the implication is usually that it is being spoken, atlhough the vast
majority of the sagas that I have read were in English translation, and I
don't know the ON phrasology that the translation was based on.

I did not know that it was fairly well established that the Eddic material
was sung. Tacitus does also make reference to traditional material being
conveyed in song in Germanic culture, although the correspondence between
the tribes that he names and a given culture is somewhat difficult to
discern from initial reading (I don't know to what extent the matter has
been elucidated in studies), but I seem to recall that some of the peoples
he referred to were securely Scandinavian.

Religious material and its performance does tend to be far more conservative
than other aspects of a culture's artistic endeavor. Although the material
available for comparison is taken from over a huge extent of time and a
large continuum of cultural development and divergance from Proto Indo
European, there is significant similarity in the structure of material that
would be presented in the performance of a religious ceremony in different
IE culture. There seems to be a particular prevalance of material that
alternates between conventional prose and a more structured type of
iteration that is something of an intermediary between prose and material
that employs the entire extent of the given culture's poetic devices.
Examples of this, with expressions of multi word verbal formulas and verse
structure that are clearly ultimately from a PIE cultural unity occur in
Hittite, numerous Italics, Old Irish, Avestan and Sanskrit. It is noteworthy
that this highly prevalent feature of verse with intervening prose narrative
is the structure of the religious themed Eddas. A fundamental reference on
IE ritual and religious poetic expression and the variation in different
cultures of the themes that they inherited from the time of cultural
cohesion is:

Watkins, A. 1995. How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics.
Oxford University Press.

Also, you made a statement that gave me the impression that some instruments
from the Viking Age or earlier survived, if not entirely intact, and I was
wondering if you had any references on this subject and knew what types of
archaic Germanic instruments have survived.

> > I haven't undertaken an inquiry into the subject adequate to
>warrant a decisive conclusion, but my impression is certainly
>that the familiar verse material that we have artifacts of now was
>primarily or exclusively performed without music.
>
>See above. I also refer you to the Sequetia project, which is the
>best known of modern efforts to reconstruct eddic musical performance
>
> > There are ballads from all of the Scandinavian countries and at
>least some of the Viking Age colonies, such as the Faroes, whose
>origin is at least immediately subsequent to the Viking Age, if not
>before.
>
>Yes.
>
> > Jorge Luis Borges wrote fictional material about archaic Germanic
>lays being sung with the accompaniment exclusively of the harp. He
>certainly was an avid student of archaic Germanic verse, and it
>would surprise me terribly if this was a reference to a valid
>tradition, but of course it could certainly also be fictional
>construction.
>
>The Germanic harp is, indeed, known to have been used by Germanics
>while performing traditional poetry.
>
> > Finally, I think that it would be inappropriate for me to go into
>an exposition of the different types of tuning systems, and
>therefore the likely ON tuning, on thsi list. However, 12 equal
>intervalic tuning was not used by any culture until the 17th century.
>
>Yes.
>
> > Most cultures seem to have naturally adopted a system called just
>intonation, one of the implications of which is that instruments
>would be intrinsically limited to one, or at the most a few,
>different scales.
>
>Yes. Knowing which ones would tell us a lot, especially if there is
>a source for the time signature/rythym (for instance, lj��ah�ttr,
>used in eddic song, where the stress pattern must be related to the
>time signature of the music - incidentally, lj�� can mean song, in
>addition to poem, as in German lied)
>
> > The system of 12 equal intervals per octave was employed to allow
>an instrument to play numerous scales, with the accuracy of a given
>scale correspondingly diminished. You can read more about just
>intonation by performing a search of the Internet, I'm sure. I don't
>have any references that I can provide offhand.
>
>Yes. You mention that in this earlier system instruments would be
>limited to 'one, or the most a few, different scales'. The question
>here, as regards norse music, is which scales? Without ready-tuned,
>extant instruments, there will be debate, and there is. This is why
>the jaw-harp is so critical, as it is untunable and known to have
>been played by the norse - thus the scale-debate is solved, at least
>for this instrument. By studying the harp's use in non-christianized
>cultures where it occurs (and where the norse may have got it from),
>we can learn something about how the norse likely used it. Siberian
>shamans use it to heal folk, in Asia it is used in religious chant
>(India, China, Indonesia, etc.). Like the Australian aboriginal
>digeredoo, the jawharp is a hypnotic, trance-inspiring instrument.
>The tones are nature-tones, translating Scandinavian usage here. As
>we know that the norse played this instrument, and as it's use in
>non-christianized cultures is documented, it is reasonble to assume
>that the norse usage was similar. Lastly, if the harp's use was more
>connected to norse religion than any other instrument, it would not
>be surprising if it disappeared completely, or nearly so, which is
>in fact the case. Yet it did survive in Germania, even if barely,
>and this tells us something about norse tonality, indeed.
>
>Regards,
>Konrad
>
> > Best regards.
> >
> > >From: "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
> > >Reply-To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: [norse_course] Re: Jawharp contra Wagner
> > >Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 11:38:18 -0000
> > >
> > >Good link below. I have an interest in reconstructing the
>authentic
> > >norse poetic and musical performance of pre-christian times. I
>also
> > >like and listen to rimur, nordic folk music (even play some of
>it).
> > >I have followed the Sequentia reconstruction, but am not all that
> > >satisfied with the results, as the group seems too 'operatic' and
> > >studied to my ears. Rimur, although post-christian by many
>centuries
> > >and therefore less authentically norse, are more interesting to
>me,
> > >as they seem to preserve something more similar to what I imagine
> > >authentic norse performance to have been like. I imagine that the
> > >average 'singer' was untrained in the modern sense (not
>Sequentia),
> > >that he was rural (not surprising), learned his art from the older
> > >local singers, and used a tonality different from that represented
> > >by the modern 'well- or even-tempered' 12 tone scale. All of this,
> > >of course, is true about rimur (also about nordic folk-music on
>the
> > >whole). Furthermore, I imagine that such a rural 'singer' of old
> > >would have had some musical accompaniment (see other oral cultures
> > >on this point), but that this would have been typically sparse and
> > >performed by a musician/musical specialist (probably one, but
>maybe
> > >more in a higher class, court-setting) who was trained to
>accompany
> > >such performance. Also, I imagine that such performances,
>typically
> > >in a rural setting, would have included some prose-links/story-
> > >telling between sung/chanted/intoned verse-sections, as well as
>some
> > >solo musical pieces (slættir), whose rules and tradition
>would be as
> > >complex as that of the poetry (compare the surviving traditions
>with
> > >their ornately nordic, poly-tonal, highly structured, virtuosity -
> > >solo fire, but accompaniment-style in performance with poetry).
>Now,
> > >we can easily reduce that the times/rythmic-types used were the
>same
> > >as those lying behind pre-christian, traditional germanic verse,
>for
> > >example fornyrdislag or ljodahattr. This tells us something about
> > >the time, which would have been hammered out by a steady foot,
>just
> > >as in surviving nordic traditional music. The grey area, of
>course,
> > >is tonality. What scales/tones were really used by authentic norse
> > >singers of old? We can figure that tonality was regional and
>learned
> > >from older, local performers (shown by all surviving nordic
>musical
> > >traditions, including rimur), and that singers (and musicians)
>had a
> > >personal style, highly influenced by their masters, but
>identifiably
> > >their own on some telling points. Now, the tonality of any
>randomly
> > >selected, modern performance could just as easily be taken from
> > >church-music as from pre-christian music. Indeed, there is reason
>to
> > >believe that many, perhaps most, of the scales found are foreign
>in
> > >origin, and thus not truely representative of authentic norse
>music
> > >or poetry (a fair amount of ink has been spilled on this topic).
>The
> > >problem is that we do not possess any stringed instruments
>(fiddles,
> > >langspil, harps, etc.) or bored ones (bone-flutes, willow-flutes,
> > >etc.) where the tuning/tonality is a)preserved intact and b)deemed
> > >to represent typical tonality at the time. Folk were raised with a
> > >certain tonal-background, much as they were with a cultural one in
> > >general. They 'heard' music a certain way and could, not doubt,
>deem
> > >any music native or foreign by ear. Now, I have done some research
> > >on musical intruments of the time (as have many others more
>learned
> > >than I on this topic) and have discovered the following, which I
>do
> > >think is Odin's golden-key, so to say, for us modern folk (the
>quiet
> > >revenge of the aged-one against the killers of germanic music):
>the
> > >mouth-harp. This simple, portable instrument is found everywhere
>in
> > >Germanic soil, as it was discarded when the tongue broke and a new
> > >one obtained. It was cheap, easily made by any smith wanting to
>make
> > >a little extra money. In my research, I have read about, visited
>and
> > >seen iron- and viking-age mouth harps. Now, this intrument is
>Odin's
> > >golden for the following two reasons: 1) it was actually played by
> > >actual norse persons in norse times (with no other musical,
>cultural
> > >or religious back-ground than a norse one, as far as we can tell)
> > >and 2) unlike other intruments (surviving or not) thought to
>really
> > >have existed at the time in norse culture, the mouth-harp cannot
>be
> > >tuned - it has only one tonality. Play the mouth-harp in the
>museum
> > >and it will still sound exactly like it did when it was made,
>given
> > >only that its tongue is intact. No tongue? Make a copy and it will
> > >still sound identical. This gives us a tonality (with a tonic
>note,
> > >a primary scale and microtonal series), which singers must
>likewise
> > >have used while being accompanied by this instrument. How popular
>or
> > >truely representative was this instrument? Archeaology tells us
>that
> > >it was very typical. Consider also the affordability and
>portability
> > >issues: 1) most folk were poor and good instruments expensive 2)
>the
> > >mouth-harp is portable - just but it in your pocket and set sail.
>It
> > >is logical to assume that ancients loved music as much as we do,
>and
> > >that aspiring musicians took their instruments everywhere, just as
> > >many moderns still do (despite recording-technology, music-players
> > >and less demand for actual live performance). One imagines that,
>in
> > >ancient times, a man heard no music unless 1)he sand or played 2)
>he
> > >had contact with someone who sang or played. A great environment
>to
> > >sell cheap, easily made instruments in, indeed. As there is no
>real
> > >doubt that old singers would have been accompanied by a mouth-
>harp,
> > >often if not exclusively, and that some/most of them would
>likewise
> > >have played it themselves (though not while singing, obviously),
>can
> > >be not assume that the harp's tonality also occured in singing?
>This
> > >would seem a natural enough conclusion. Now, I certainly do wonder
> > >why Sequentia, for example, did no use this instrument, and why
>the
> > >other viking-age musical reconstructions that I have heard do not
> > >use it either. Perhaps the instrument is considered too primitive
>or
> > >not glamorous enough for moderns with romantic ideas about the
>noble
> > >ancient germanics' musical tradition. Wagner or not, one singer
>and
> > >one jawharp player would be, I think, typical enough of an ancient
> > >performance. Thoughts welcome.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Konrad
> > >
> > >
> > >--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > THE LINK: I just came across this book online: "Kv��askapur:
> > >Icelandic Epic Song", by Hreinn Steingr�msson. It looks
>interesting
> > >although there's a lot that's too technical for me to understand.
> > >It discusses the possibility that the traditional Icelandic
> > >singing/chanting style might go back to very early times, and that
> > >Old English poetry could have been performed in a similar way.
> > >Unfortunately some of the special Icelandic characters don't show
> > >up, so watch out for missing '�', etc.
> > >
> > > > http://music.calarts.edu/KVAEDASKAPUR/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > THE CORRECTION: For some reason I absentmindedly added 'ik' in
>that
> > >first line of the would-be Gothic verse in my reply to Konrad,
>which
> > >should have read: 'Brikan skal airis, bro�ar,' (an attempted
> > >translation of ON 'bresta mun fyrr, br��ir').
> > >
> > >Noted. Nice ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > >Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > >To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
> > >
> > >norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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>A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
>Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
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