"með landi" along the coast? + "the eagle" (a grisly síðan)

Thanks Sarah!

That's great. It may have been a misunderstanding, but I for one
have learnt plenty from puzzling about it. Interesting your
lecturer's comment about the two words for "coast" depending on
which side you're on: með sævi/landi.

Uh oh, here's a curious & gruesome example of síðan from the tale of
Ragnar's Sons (look away now!):

Létu þeir nú rista örn á baki Ellu ok skera síðan rifin öll frá
hrygginum með sverði, svá at þar váru lungun út dregin.

Now they had the "eagle" cut in Ella's back and then had all the
ribs severed from his spine with a sword, so that his lungs were
pulled out there.

I don't know what the experts make of this, but I always thought the
blood-eagle *was* the pulling out of the lungs. But this suggests
it referred to some preliminary marking or flaying action. Hmmm...

Llama Nom

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen" <sarahbowen@...>
wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> Finally I can get back to you about "með landi" and "síðan".
>
> Firstly, apologies. I got the wrong end of the stick about "með

landi". Here is the explanation my lecturer gives:

>
> you wanted to know about Hann ferr nú síðan suðr með landi in

Audunar thattr. Literally, as you know, thie means 'He goes now
afterwards south with land', i.e. he follows the coast south. If
Audun were on land (we know he's not), the phrase would still work
gramatically, but would it make any useful sense? The 'land' goes in
all directions, and wouldn't be a feature that he would naturally
follow. He might follow a headland, for example (með nesi), or some
other geographical feature: he might well follow the sea(-coast)
(með sævi). I can't see how fara með landi could work if he were
travelling by land, and I certainly don't recall seeing it
anywhere. The phrase we have in Audun is not uncommon and always
occurs (as far as I know) during descriptions of sea-voyages.

>
> And here is what he says about "síðan"
>
> I've never seen "síðan" used spatially, and I'm quite confident in

stating that it's a purely

> temporal adverb, used to link sequences of events one after

another. 'Afterwards' is an

> adequate and indeed normal gloss for it, although we'd most

commonly render it with

> 'then'. 'Subsequently' is a bit flowery, but might also do.

Something that establishes a

> temporal sequence, anyway. 'Nu' (accent on the u!) is here part of

the style - immediacy

> of the colloquial present tense - rather than actually

contributing to the ordering of the

> narrative's events.
>
> Hope this helps.
> Cheers,
> Sarah.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: llama_nom
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:25 AM
> Subject: [norse_course] Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback Patricia: "með

landi" along the coast?

>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"

<sarahbowen@...>

> wrote:
> > Great! Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with him

and

> let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from being in

this

> group than attending lectures - oooops, did I really say that :-)
>
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> Careful though, I could well be getting confused... But if you

get

> a chance, could you also query síðan = "further"? I can't find

that

> meaning in Zoega, only "afterwards", "since", etc. The nearest

> can find in Cleasby & Vigsusson is: lengi síðan "for a long time
> after". But I can't see any spatial meanings. Gwyn Jones just
> has "He now proceeded south along the coast".
>
> If you have access to "Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Reader" Revised
> throughout by Dorothy Whitlock, there's an interesting note in

there

> pp. 229-230, on Ohthere's use of "eastweard" when he seem to

mean

> south: "this agrees with Old Norse usage: the south coast of

Norway

> from Lindesnes to Oslo Fjord was known as _austr í Vík_, and
> voyagers travelling there, even from the north, speak of going
> east." (Though judging by Auðun they could add "south" as well.)
>
> Apparently _í Vík austr_ can also be used just to mean position,
> without movement:
>
> Haraldr hét einn hersir ríkr ok ágætr í Vík austr
> (Gríms saga loðinkinna)
>
> ...which I suppose is a bit like _vestur þar í fjörðum_ in the

very

> first line of Auðun.
>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"

<sarahbowen@...>

> wrote:
> > Great! Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with him

and

> let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from being in

this

> group than attending lectures - oooops, did I really say that :-)
> >
> > Kveðja,
> > Sarah.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: llama_nom
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:20 AM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback

Patricia: "með

> landi" along the coast?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Like you, I thought "með landi" meant following the coast

but

> > apparently here it is "by land" or "over land". If someone

can

> give
> > me a convincing argument that this is incorrect, please do

and

> I´ll
> > discuss it with my lecturer :-)
> >
> >
> > Hi Sarah,
> >
> > Do you (or your lecturer!) have any examples of it

meaning "by

> > land"? I just typed the phrase into Google, and found

plenty of

> > quotes where it seems to be "[by sea] along the coast".

Here's

> one
> > with the verb _fara_:
> >
> > En er Haraldr konungr varð þessa tíðinda víss, þá dró hann

her

> saman
> > ok skaut skipum á vatn; bjósk síðan með lið mikit ok ferr

með

> landi
> > suðr... (Haralds saga ins Hárfagra, 36)
> >
> > Harald is on his way to fight a sea battle. I suppose it
> doesn't
> > actually state that he is on board, but I found plenty more

with

> > _sigla_ and other nautical verbs & contexts. Cleasy &

Vigfusson

> > have "sail along the shore" for: sigla með landi. Also Gwyn
> Jones
> > has "south along the coast" at this point in his translation
> > of "Audun and the Bear". And by sea might be a more

sensible

> way to
> > travel in medieval Norway... But I wonder if "með landi"

could

> > theoretically also mean "[by land] along the coast", in the
> right
> > context? Or could it describle position with no
> motion: "situated
> > along the coast" (e.g. a cliff, or hills)? At Joshua 13,3,

the

> > Icelandic Bible uses the phrase of a river, running along

the

> border
> > of a country: frá Síhór, sem rennur fram með Egyptalandi að
> > austanverðu, til landamæra Ekron í norðri - það telst með

landi

> > Kanaaníta...
> >
> > Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
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